
Vaccination vs Natural Immunity Debate
A WSJ article addresses the question Which Carries the Stronger Immunity, Covid-19 Vaccines or Infections? Note: That is a not paywalled link.
Evidence is building that immunity from Covid-19 infection is at least as strong as that from vaccination. Scientists are divided on the implications for vaccine policy.
Vaccines typically give rise to a stronger antibody response than infection, which might make them better at fending off the virus in the short term. Infection triggers a response that evolves over time, possibly making it more robust in the long term. A combination of both types appears to be stronger than either alone. But the jury is out on whether one form is stronger than the other, and whether their relative strength even matters for vaccine policy.
One thing is clear: Vaccination is a far safer, more reliable strategy for acquiring immunity, given the risks of serious illness or death from infection. But viewpoints splinter about whether people who have had Covid-19 before need a full course of vaccination, and whether documented prior infection should count as proof of immunity—as is the case in some other countries, including much of Europe.
A recent Israeli study found that people who had been vaccinated with two shots of the vaccine developed by Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE —the most commonly used there—were 13 times more likely to later get infected than those with a prior infection. The study, which hasn’t been peer reviewed, tracked confirmed infections between June and August this year for people who had been either vaccinated or infected in January or February.
Some studies suggest the opposite. One, conducted by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, found that, among people hospitalized with a respiratory illness, Covid-19 was over five times more common among those who were unvaccinated and had an earlier infection compared with those who were fully inoculated and hadn’t had the virus before. Critics say the study, which hasn’t been peer reviewed, had flaws that likely overestimated the relative strength of vaccination.
The two forms of immunity appear to have different strengths. Vaccination with mRNA vaccines produced higher concentrations of neutralizing antibodies—the type that prevent the virus from entering cells—than infection, although levels waned in both groups, according to a recent paper published in the journal Nature by researchers at the Rockefeller University in New York.
So-called hybrid immunity—that in people who have had both vaccination and infection—has been shown to be strongest of all. The Rockefeller researchers found that vaccination boosted levels of antibodies in the blood and memory B cells in people who had been infected before. The effect also appears to work in the other direction: A study of vaccinated people who were infected during a July 4 holiday weekend outbreak in Cape Cod found that they produced high levels of antibodies and T-cells directed against the virus. That study, led by researchers at the Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, hasn’t been peer reviewed.
Some doctors say the mounting evidence on the role of immunity from infection supports a more nuanced approach to vaccine policy.
Among them is UCSF’s Dr. Gandhi, who supports a single dose of vaccine in people who have had the virus. She also thinks prior infection should carry weight when it comes to vaccine mandates. “Mandating [vaccination] so that someone [unvaccinated] loses their job if they have a proven prior infection is going too far,” she said.
Marty Makary, a professor at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, also advocates a case-by-case approach to vaccination in people who have already had Covid-19, especially among children. “There’s no scientific basis for vaccinating people who had the infection,” he said. “It’s not clear to me that the benefits of vaccination in someone who has circulating antibodies outweighs the risk.”
“The risk of vaccination is extraordinarily low,” said Tom Frieden, former director of the CDC and chief executive of Resolve to Save Lives, a nonprofit initiative that works on strengthening epidemic preparedness. “The benefit is high and the uncertainty with infection makes it so that you can’t make that a replacement to vaccination.”
Supporting Evidence For Every Position
The article contains enough studies and opinions to suit whatever you want to believe.
I am more prone to believe Israeli and Rockefeller studies than studies by the CDC.
Indeed, the conflicting and changing stories coupled with outright purposeful lies by Dr. Anthony Fauci explain why many do not trust Fauci, the World Health Organization, or the CDC.
Certainly the vaccinations have proven to have fewer complications and lower death rates than being unvaccinated.
And even if one survives Covid, there appears to be additional benefit to vaccinations.
Does Omicron Change the Debate?
Actually, we simply do not have enough information to know.
Here’s a debate proposal of another kind.
A friend of mine asked me to promote a debate between Dr. Fauci and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis.
The proposed format is a 60-90 minute debate on COVID lockdowns, masks, vaccines and treatments.
That’s the challenge if either happens to read this post.
Related Articles
- Nov 26: Stock Selloff Blamed on New Covid-19 Variant, Lockdowns Feared
- Nov 27: Countries Race to Impose Controls as Omicron is ‘Quite Different’ Covid-19 Variant
- Nov 27: Panic Sets In: New York Declares State of Emergency Over Omicron Covid-19 Variant
Thanks for Tuning In!
Like these reports? If so, please Subscribe to MishTalk Email Alerts.
Subscribers get an email alert of each post as they happen. Read the ones you like and you can unsubscribe at any time.
If you have subscribed and do not get email alerts, please check your spam folder.
Mish


CDC had a press release that said those who vacc has lower non-COVID overall death rate than we suckers who don’t vacc….
If that’s true, sign me up for every booster available 🙂
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody-dependent_enhancement
Prior infection in patients with COVID-19 was highly protective
against reinfection and symptomatic disease. This protection increased
over time, suggesting that viral shedding or ongoing immune response may
persist beyond 90 days and may not represent true reinfection.
Cleveland Clinic
Out of the 1,359 staffers who were unvaccinated and previously infected with COVID-19, none were reinfected during the study (6 months). The study has found that someone who has been
infected with the coronavirus is unlikely to be reinfected for at least
10 months
There are many to show boosters are needed after 3-4 months because they wane, here’s the NIH and Lancet.
studies during the recent period of predominantly delta (B.1.617.2)
variant transmission, found that the risk of repeat SARS-CoV-2 infection
decreased by 80·5–100% among those who had had COVID-19 previously (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00676-9/fulltext#box1).
The reported studies were large and conducted throughout the world.
Another laboratory-based study that analysed the test results of 9119
people with previous COVID-19 from Dec 1, 2019, to Nov 13, 2020, found
that only 0·7% became reinfected after 18 months. Researchers have also found that people who recovered from SARS-CoV
infection in 2002–03 continue to have memory T cells that are reactive
to SARS-CoV proteins 17 years after that outbreak.
1·3 and 6·2 months after infection, which is consistent with longer-term
protection
interest with regard to the threat recovered, unvaccinated people are to others is the CDC even shows no reported instances of previously
infected people who are infected a 2nd time actually having a viral load
sufficient to transmit it to anyone else.
We sit here almost 2 years after this thing started, and Fauci and the CDC have no research as to the immunity after recovery?!?! Really?!?!
The rest of the world does.
Another is,”Why are we not looking at ALL treatments once infected?” The CDC says aspirin helps, steroids help, a whole bunch of off-label medications can help according to the CDC – BUT NOT Ivermectin? The drug Billions of people have taken to nearly eliminate the pandemic level infections in Africa and India, and it cannot even be prescribed here?
rates of non–COVID-19 mortality than did unvaccinated persons after
adjusting for age, sex, race and ethnicity, and study site.”
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7043e2.htm
True, but only if you get infected and recover, and at high risk for hospitalization.
If you really whiteboard out the policy and resulting effect in the US, it’s to push everyone into vaccinations, encourage transmission among those who think they’re immune with a vacc (think De blasio in New York), so the population develops natural immunity without pressuring the medical system.
The problem with saying: “Vaccination is a far
safer, more reliable strategy for acquiring immunity, given the risks of
serious illness or death from infection…” is the data being used
to make this assumption is not accurate. People with only one jab, or who
haven’t waited 14 days since their second jab, are considered
unvaccinated. Most of the adverse events, including death, occur during
this “unvaccinated window.” Declining T and B cells post jab,
similar to AIDS, is also a big warning flag against long-term efficacy.
And, the most logical argument is the Flu shot against the Coronavirus.
It has never given long-lasting immunity, only one flu season, and up to 50%
efficacy at that. Covid-19 is a Coronavirus and is therefore under the
same laws of physics (short-term immunity) as the Flu Shot operates under. This is proven
with the “breakthrough” cases so far, and the Delta Variant
hospitalizing vaccinated populations (despite the press/hospitals quoting fake
numbers). You can’t, with current technology, provide immunity for the
ever-changing Coronaviruses–so why try on the whole world population?
This is a Luciferian/Marxist takeover of the world population under the
guise of saving the world from a Pandemic.
…or get a booster every 4-6 months forever?
far-less-deadly variant that could give us all immunity without killing
us.”
Very interesting comment… maybe that’s how these things die out…
refers to the propensity of the body’s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_system to preferentially utilize https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunological_memory based on a previous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infection when a second slightly different version of that foreign pathogen (e.g. a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterium) is encountered. This leaves the immune system “trapped” by the first response it has made to each [by a vaccine]
and unable to mount potentially more effective responses during
subsequent infections. Antibodies or T-cells induced during infections
with the first variant of the pathogen are subject to a form of original
antigenic sin, termed repertoire freeze.
Brookings had a poll showed that 41% of democrats think that any COVID infection results in hospitalization. CLEARLY not the case and impacts policy decisions like you proposed.
The status also counts a positive PCR test as Covid, without any serological confirmation of an actual case.
…CDC even shows no reported instances of previously
infected people who are infected a 2nd time actually having a viral load
sufficient to transmit it to anyone else.
I would suggest if you cannot transmit it to others without getting sick, that constitutes neutralizing.
The big question is how to test for “neutralizing levels” because it’s NOT just the anitbodies currently in your bloodstream