Scientists Conclude Dire Climate Change Models Were Wrong, Now What?

Bryce Canyon National Park, Utah, image by Mish, quote by Judy Collins

Climate Change Modeling Meets Limits of Science 

The Wall Street Journal reports Climate Scientists Encounter Limits of Computer Models, Bedeviling Policy.

That is a non-paywalled, free-to-read link courtesy of the WSJ. 

It’s lengthy but an excellent read. I encourage everyone to take a look.

The dire predictions went out the window, seemingly unanimously. But there is plenty in the article for the fearmongers and the sceptics to both say “I told you so”.

Italic emphasis in the snips below is mine.

Introduction

For almost five years, an international consortium of scientists was chasing clouds, determined to solve a problem that bedeviled climate-change forecasts for a generation: How do these wisps of water vapor affect global warming?

They reworked 2.1 million lines of supercomputer code used to explore the future of climate change, adding more-intricate equations for clouds and hundreds of other improvements. They tested the equations, debugged them and tested again.

The scientists would find that even the best tools at hand can’t model climates with the sureness the world needs as rising temperatures impact almost every region.

Dire Forecasts Wrong

When they ran the updated simulation in 2018, the conclusion jolted them: Earth’s atmosphere was much more sensitive to greenhouse gases than decades of previous models had predicted, and future temperatures could be much higher than feared—perhaps even beyond hope of practical remedy.

“We thought this was really strange,” said Gokhan Danabasoglu, chief scientist for the climate-model project at the Mesa Laboratory in Boulder at the National Center for Atmospheric Research, or NCAR. “If that number was correct, that was really bad news.”

The scientists soon concluded their new calculations had been thrown off kilter by the physics of clouds in a warming world, which may amplify or damp climate change. “The old way is just wrong, we know that,” said Andrew Gettelman, a physicist at NCAR who specializes in clouds and helped develop the CESM2 model. “I think our higher sensitivity is wrong too. It’s probably a consequence of other things we did by making clouds better and more realistic. You solve one problem and create another.

UN Plays Down Extreme Forecasts

“We have a situation where the models are behaving strangely,” said Gavin Schmidt, director of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration’s Goddard Institute for Space Sciences, a leading center for climate modeling. “We have a conundrum.”

In November 2021, as leaders met in Glasgow to negotiate limits on greenhouse gases under the auspices of the 2015 Paris Accords, there were more than 100 major global climate-change models produced by 49 different research groups, reflecting an influx of people into the field. 

In its guidance to governments last year, the U.N. climate-change panel for the first time played down the most extreme forecasts.

Hind Casting 

Before making new climate predictions for policy makers, an independent group of scientists used a technique called “hind-casting,” testing how well the models reproduced changes that occurred during the 20th century and earlier. Only models that re-created past climate behavior accurately were deemed acceptable.

Computing Clouds 

Because clouds can both reflect solar radiation into space and trap heat from Earth’s surface, they are among the biggest challenges for scientists honing climate models.

At any given time, clouds cover more than two-thirds of the planet. Their impact on climate depends on how reflective they are, how high they rise and whether it is day or night. They can accelerate warming or cool it down. They operate at a scale as broad as the ocean, as small as a hair’s width. Their behavior can be affected, studies show, by factors ranging from cosmic rays to ocean microbes, which emit sulfur particles that become the nuclei of water droplets or ice crystals.

“If you don’t get clouds right, everything is out of whack.” said Tapio Schneider, an atmospheric scientist at the California Institute of Technology and the Climate Modeling Alliance, which is developing an experimental model. “Clouds are crucially important for regulating Earth’s energy balance.”

In an independent assessment of 39 global-climate models last year, scientists found that 13 of the new models produced significantly higher estimates of the global temperatures caused by rising atmospheric levels of carbon dioxide than the older computer models—scientists called them the “wolf pack.” Weighed against historical evidence of temperature changes, those estimates were deemed unrealistic.

Dr. Gettelman, who helped develop CESM2, and his colleagues in their initial upgrade added better ways to model polar ice caps and how carbon and nitrogen cycle through the environment. To make the ocean more realistic, they added wind-driven waves. They fine-tuned the physics in its algorithms and made its vintage Fortran code more efficient.

Even the simplest diagnostic test is challenging. The model divides Earth into a virtual grid of 64,800 cubes, each 100 kilometers on a side, stacked in 72 layers. For each projection, the computer must calculate 4.6 million data points every 30 minutes. To test an upgrade or correction, researchers typically let the model run for 300 years of simulated computer time.

In their initial analysis, scientists discovered a flaw in how CESM2 modeled the way moisture interacts with soot, dust or sea-spray particles that allow water vapor to condense into cloud droplets. It took a team of 10 climate experts almost 5 months to track it down to a flaw in their data and correct it, the scientists said.

Strained Supercomputers 

The NCAR scientists in Boulder would like to delve more deeply into the behavior of clouds, ice sheets and aerosols, but they already are straining their five-year-old Cheyenne supercomputer, according to NCAR officials. A climate model able to capture the subtle effects of individual cloud systems, storms, regional wildfires and ocean currents at a more detailed scale would require a thousand times more computer power, they said.

Climate models need to link rising temperatures on a global scale to changing conditions in a local forest, watershed, grassland or agricultural zone, says NCAR forest ecologist Jacquelyn Shuman and NCAR scientist Gerald Meehl.

“Computer models that contain both large-scale and small-scale models allow you to really do experiments that you can’t do in the real world,” she said. “You can really ramp up the temperature, dial down the precipitation or completely change the amount of fire or lightning strikes that an area is seeing, so you can really diagnose how it all works together. That’s the next step. It would be very computationally expensive.”

“I think the climate models are the best tool we have to understand the future, even though they are far from perfect,” said Dr. Gettelman. “I’m not worried that the new models might be wrong. What scares me is that they might be right.”

Both Sides Now 

Models Will Get Better 

Scientists need to keep doing what they are doing. The models surely will get better. 

Despite the models being wrong, they appear to be better than I expected. 

Yet, had we listened to the dire forecasts from Al Gore, globetrotting Gretta, President Biden, and media darling AOC, where would we be?

Al Gore wanted to spend $90 trillion to fight climate change.    

AOC “New Green Deal” Stunningly Absurd: Far More Ridiculous Than Expected

Recall my February 7, 2019 post AOC “New Green Deal” Stunningly Absurd: Far More Ridiculous Than Expected

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC) released her bill for a “Green New Deal”. It’s stunningly absurd.

AOC’s Green New Deal Pricetag of $51 to $93 Trillion

On February 25, 2019 I noted I compared AOC’s Green New Deal Pricetag of $51 to $93 Trillion vs. Cost of Doing Nothing

William Nordhaus, a co-recipient of the 2018 Nobel Prize in economics, compared AOC’s Green New Deal with the cost of doing nothing and various alternatives.

 Nordhaus’s model—at least as of its 2007 calibration—estimated that such a policy goal would make humanity $14 trillion poorer compared to doing nothing at all about climate change. 

2007 is admittedly way out of date, yet the models then were on the dire side.

AOC Says World Will End in 12 Years

On January 22, 2019 I noted Ocasio-Cortez Says World Will End in 12 Years: Here’s What to Do About It

AOC now says her comment was out of context, but play the video and you will see that her comments clearly weren’t.

Perhaps it was hyperbole, but extreme fearmongering of this kind will do nothing but raise eyebrows. 

Clean Energy Now Demands

We have had an endless parade of fearmongers including Al Gore, Gretta,, AOC, Senator Elizabeth Warren, President Biden, the UN, and countless others demanding “clean energy now”.

None of them have factored in the amount of copper, lithium, rare earth materials, etc., needed for their demands.

Their demands also depend on unreliable wind and battery storage techniques that do not even exist yet.

Solar energy is surprising cheap provided there is enough cheap land, there are no clouds, there is no nighttime, and the energy needs are in the desert, not New York City.

Alternatively, solar needs storage technology that does not yet exist, but even if it did, we still have issues regarding need for more lithium, rare earth metals, etc., for the storage.

We will get there over time, but that time is not now. Fearmongering does not help.

Per Capita CO2 Emissions

Per capita emissions chart courtesy of Our World in Data.

The US, EU, and UK have made huge strides in emissions. China, India, and many emerging markets are headed in the opposite direction.

The political reality of the matter is that actions by the US and EU will not do much unless China and India do much more, much faster.

Global Net Zero Climate Change Targets are ‘Pie in the Sky’

Please recall my April 5, 2021 , post Global Net Zero Climate Change Targets are ‘Pie in the Sky’.

India lambasted the richer world’s carbon cutting plans, calling long term net zero targets, “pie in the sky.”

In a pre-summit climate change meeting of 197 countries, China did not show up. India blasted the targets as “Pie in the Sky”. 

“2060 sounds good, but it is just that, it sounds good,” Raj Kumar Singh, India’s minister for power, told a meeting organized by the International Energy Agency (IEA).

Government Action

Scientists discarded 13 of 39 models, those with the most dire predictions and those that could not explain the ice age. Guess which ones the media, the politicians, and the fearmongers most quoted.

Now the scientists struggle with clouds.

One of my readers repeatedly challenges me to a debate on climate change.

I am sure he understands the models way better than I do. But those models were wrong on the dire side. Yet, I admit the models seem better than I expected.

However, my main objection to all of this has been vindicated.

Anyone expecting government fearmongers to do anything sensible about climate change were, and still are wrong.

Science is advancing rapidly. Clean energy, especially solar, will make a dent. But along the way, we dropped nuclear from the equation to appease the Greens. 

Dropping nuclear energy was a huge mistake, especially in Europe where Germany is now using more coal and is increasingly dependent on Russia for natural gas. 

That is the irony of Green demands. The Greens perpetually demand more from science than science permits, at prices the Greens don’t even bother to calculate.

Finally, the Greens ignore the huge political reality regarding China and India. India is talking 2060 and China 2050 on net zero. 

There is no way to force countries to go along with US and EU mandates. The cost of attempting to do so via tariffs would be massive, undoubtedly resulting in a global recession, if not depression.

“I’ve looked at clouds from both sides now
“From up and down and still somehow
“It’s cloud’s illusions I recall
“I really don’t know clouds at all”

 This post originated at MishTalk.Com.

Please Subscribe!

Like these reports? I hope so, and if you do, please Subscribe to MishTalk Email Alerts.

Subscribers get an email alert of each post as they happen. Read the ones you like and you can unsubscribe at any time.

If you have subscribed and do not get email alerts, please check your spam folder.

Mish

Subscribe to MishTalk Email Alerts.

Subscribers get an email alert of each post as they happen. Read the ones you like and you can unsubscribe at any time.

This post originated on MishTalk.Com

Thanks for Tuning In!

Mish

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

83 Comments
Newest
Oldest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
mphillips22
mphillips22
2 years ago
“Scientists Conclude Dire Climate Change Models Were Wrong, Now What?” The title to this topic can be misread as though all climate change modeling has failed and that there is no climate change happening. That is not what the WSJ article was about. The article was about modeling clouds more accurately. Attempts to do so gave predictions that are extreme. The results don’t fit with current knowledge. Hence, these results are not being taken as a usable and good prediction of the influence of clouds on future climate change. Nobody has thrown the baby out with the bath water. Climate change predictions are as they were.
twh64
twh64
2 years ago
Mosh, Appreciate you much more often than I express it. This post, in particular, was a treasure. Thank you! Tom
Greenmountain
Greenmountain
2 years ago
Reply to  twh64
It would be great if this could start a real discussion about what is possible, ie.  How do we develop storage for solar?  Great start Mish
pete3397
pete3397
2 years ago
These same jackasses who now admit that their models are too complex to adequately model the climate were just a week or so ago ripping Jordan Peterson when he pointed out that their models were too complex to adequately model the climate.  
Cocoa
Cocoa
2 years ago
The US is doing quite well. It helps to crash the economy and put everyone on the dole
Billy
Billy
2 years ago
I admit that I fell for the fear mongering when I was a kid. It started with the rain forests and how we were going to run out of breathable air if we don’t stop the deforesting in the rain forest. Before my time it was about the Russians and other communist countries. Next was the Aids epidemic and how the world must come together and stop Aids before the population in Africa dies off. Then Y2K. Oh no our computers are going to die and we all must get new computers before that happens. Then Al Gore’s weather prediction from “An Inconvenient Truth” in 2006. 20 minutes in he had a parabolic chart relating CO2 emissions to the Northern hemisphere’s avg temp. By the year 2000 we were almost at 1 degree higher than the average going back over 1,000 years. Then he get’s dramatic showing a chart that we will be another 3 degrees higher within 45 years if America doesn’t reverse course. Since then we all know that America did a little and Asia is about 10 times more polluters than we ever were.
I also looked up a chart on Africa population and there never was a decrease in population at all. It must of been because everyone held hands and sang songs. Shortly after the term “Global Warming” was debunked and “science” focused on the new term “Climate Change.”
Convenient don’t you think?
BTW, our computers never died. I tested that theory with my parent’s network by changing the date forward. It wasn’t that hard to do.
We never ran out of oxygen either.
I also have a new prediction. Covid related deaths will sharply drop as soon as hospitals loose their incentives to report them. I know this may sound like a crazy theory but give it a time.
davebarnes2
davebarnes2
2 years ago
Really simple solution, politically.
Stop talking about climate change.
Talk about clean air, water, and land.
Ask people how they feel about breathing ICE auto exhaust, methane, mercury.
KidHorn
KidHorn
2 years ago
Reply to  davebarnes2
I would prefer what an ICE produces over what a lithium ion battery produces. If sufficient lithium gets in our water supply, we’re doomed. Not only will the water we drink be poisonous, but plants won’t grow in a lithium polluted field. And we currently have no way to handle the leftover batteries.
Christoball
Christoball
2 years ago
  Scientists do not like it when their hypothesis is proved incorrect because it is a prideful event when a seemingly correct outcome is proven for their idea. In true science a disproved hypothesis is as valuable as proved hypothesis. Many scientists do not practice true science in this regard because they don’t get a merit badge for disproved ideas.
   This brings to mind the Gaia Hypothesis:  “The Gaia hypothesis is an ecological hypothesis proposing that the biosphere and the physical components of the Earth
(atmosphere, cryosphere, hydrosphere and lithosphere) are closely
integrated to form a complex interacting system that maintains the
climatic and biogeochemical conditions on Earth in a preferred” …………??????? I will stop at the word preferred for obvious reasons, in that climate scientists are always looking for the preferred outcome.
  Could it be that as more people who live closer to the equator migrate to greener and more pleasant lands in the Northern direction; that the climate is going to warm up in the places these people migrate to?????  This would facilitate the climate having a more equatorial feel in order to make the new arrivals more comfortable.
  One scientist has suggested that the solution is not to limit Northward migration, for reasons of political correctness. He suggested that a more effective solution would be for Santa Clause to move his whole apparatus to the Equator to restore equilibrium. Perhaps scientists could run some charts on this clever idea to predict possible preferred outcomes.
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
“Dire Forecasts Wrong”
With Covid-19 we had a replay of the fear playbook. Socialism is supposed to be the only cure for climate change. Fear makes people willing to give up their freedom for an ulterior purpose that has nothing to do with alleged crisis at hand.
Every individual has it in their power to use less electricity or heating or gasoline or water. The WEF Davos crowd should know how to use Zoom by now, instead of polluting the atmosphere, flying from around the world on private jets every year, while most people will never see Davos once in their lifetime. The elitists never behave as if we are all in this together, because we aren’t. They impose on us a lower standard of living, while they continue their opulent lifestyle.
Billy
Billy
2 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
The only time I ever saw Congress work together was the Patriot act. America was so scared and willing to give our privacy.
KidHorn
KidHorn
2 years ago
I’ve written many finite element/difference analysis algorithms. Mainly for keeping electronics cool. It’s very difficult to get an accurate model. You can implement conservation of matter and energy equations exactly right and be way off with results. And I didn’t have to deal with phase changes and non linearities caused by how thermal radiation works. How planetary bodies heat up and cool off is completely different than how things work on the earths surface with say your oven, but they interact a lot, and it can make it hard to converge on a solution. You have to get the boundary conditions exactly right, which seems almost impossible to do for a planet.
KidHorn
KidHorn
2 years ago
There are clearly issues beyond not accurate modeling clouds. Their element size is 100km^3. Way too big.
thimk
thimk
2 years ago
Excellent , well composed and illustrated narrative . Makes you wonder if  the “green”  ideology is really about existentialism   or about centralized control, de-facto socialism, and the extinction of certain industries , to be replaced by quasi government institutions.  The “greens” main focus and battle is cry is the incessant obsession with world CO2 output , completely blind to  other factors (natural and man made) that contribute to climate change and might be less costly to address.                
Zardoz
Zardoz
2 years ago
Reply to  thimk
They are also plotting to I steal your underpants. How can a man breathe free with no underpants? It’s commufascsoialsim! 
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Klaus Schwab says you will own nothing, including your clothes and be happy. Human life as a series of service subscriptions.
thimk
thimk
2 years ago
Reply to  Zardoz
Ain’t gonna happen – Obama said “if you like your underpants you can keep your underpants.” 
Dr_Novaxx
Dr_Novaxx
2 years ago
Reply to  thimk
…and it makes you wonder…if we’re buying a stairway-hey, to he-vuhun.
whirlaway
whirlaway
2 years ago
Meanwhile… a new “record” has been set at the Olympics!
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
Reply to  whirlaway
We have plenty of natural fluffy snow in the Alps. Should of held it where there is snow.
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
Even Ottawa has snow at the Convoy for Freedom convention.
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
And polar bear weather to boot.
WarpartySerf
WarpartySerf
2 years ago
Gee Mish      How about correctly naming the author of “Both Sides Now ” ?       Joni Mitchell  ( not Judy Collins).
Dr_Novaxx
Dr_Novaxx
2 years ago
Reply to  WarpartySerf
Isn’t Joni Michell one of the Joe Rogan-Spotify cancellers?
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
Reply to  WarpartySerf
Joni Michell wrote the song but Judy Collins popularized it. 
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
2 years ago
“They reworked 2.1 million lines of supercomputer code used to explore the future of climate change, adding more-intricate equations for clouds and hundreds of other improvements. They tested the equations, debugged them and tested again.”
And have not the faintest clue of any of that even improved their, currently at best 0.000000001%, understanding of something as complex as an entire planet’s “climate,” or made no difference at all….
 “If you don’t get clouds right, everything is out of whack.”
I you don’t get ocean currents right, microbe growth right, wind right, dust-in-that-wind right, cosmic radiation right, nuclear tests right, forest growth/clearing right, agricultural land use right, iceberg birthing/collisions/contact with warmer vs colder currents right, nuclear tests right, volcanoes right, the exact future distribution of arsonists in California right, etc., etc. Plus another few million other things to get right, which noone has even thought to consider so far…. And until you do all that, everything is out of whack…. No different from what is the case for any complex problem.
You solve one problem and create another.
Close, but not exactly. Instead, more correctly: You merely think/hope you solve one problem. And even that creates ten others.
“Scientists need to keep doing what they are doing. The models surely will get better.”
“Before making new climate predictions for policy makers,…”
And thats the problem. As always. Not scientists. “Policy Makers.” Useless tax feeding dregs too dumb to contribute anything meaningful to anything. Yet “scientists,” and everyone else, are somehow supposed to work for illiterate them. “Climate models” were exactly not included at all as one of legitimate government’s enumerated powers, back when basic insight and intelligence was aspired to by American national “leaders.” It’s only once basic insight and intelligence no longer was aspired to, that absolute drivel like totalitarian government’s involvement in things noone, including scientists for the next thousand+ years, can hope to understand; became excuses du jour for totalitarian hacks, and the useless leeches playing “I’m with those guys” with them, to get involved. As always, paid for with more intelligent and productive people’s money and freedoms, of course. Wouldn’t be a proper by-the-dumb-and-cllueless-for-the-dumb-and-clueless dystopia if it wasn’t properly dystopian, after all.
Christoball
Christoball
2 years ago
Reply to  StukiMoi
“Wouldn’t be a proper by-the-dumb-and-cllueless-for-the-dumb-and-clueless dystopia if it wasn’t properly dystopian, after all.”  That would have be great lyrics for a refrain on “Both Sides Now”.
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
This paper just came out from scientists from Harvard and Boston University. They say that 2-3 million years ago a cloud of interstellar gas from an ancient supernova slammed the sun’s heliosphere so much that the heliosphere shrank down to under the Earth’s orbit thereby directly exposing the atmosphere to interstellar environment. The result on the climate was dramatic throwing the Earth into a series of Ice Ages. The scientists say the evidence is “overwhelming” which is rare to scientists use such language. We are no longer in this interstellar cloud so the climate is rebounding to its higher base level temperature. Maybe we have less to do with climate than we think. 
amigator
amigator
2 years ago
Thank you sir!
I stand by my axiom “Things are never as bad as they feel and things are never as good as they seem either”.
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago

In 2020
much of the world’s economies were burning much less oil and coal than before
because of the shutdowns and I was expecting to see studies showing a drop in
the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere as it should since the CO2 rise was caused
by humans. A Stanford study estimated that CO2 emissions dropped by 7% during
2020. The same study noted that although the World experienced a considerable
drop in carbon emissions the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere continued to grow.

 link to earth.stanford.edu

Later
studies confirmed this.

link to research.noaa.gov

Humans are
certainly responsible for putting a lot of CO2 in the atmosphere but it seems
that something else is also responsible for the rise and that part looks to be
able to overwhelm that part made by humans to the point of when we drop our
emissions by 7% that drop has no effect at all. Since this goes against the
narrative it isn’t reported at all in the news. If it is true and it seems to
be then our reducing CO2 emissions will not make a difference. If the climate wants
to climb out of the Ice Age Era it will whether we want to or not. It is better
for us to adapt. We are probably like King Canute commanding the tide not to
come in. It won’t work.

KidHorn
KidHorn
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
Probably due to thawing permafrost. Tundra’s around the world are releasing more greenhouse gasses as the soil thaws. CO2 and CH4.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
Wildfires, volcanoes etc contribute a lot of CO2 to the atmosphere. Also there is massive human burning in the worlds rain forests (not just in Brazil) that add more CO2.
I’m sure they will figure out soon enough why CO2 continued to rise during the pandemic. There are lots of other reasons why it may have occurred (maybe a cloudy year worldwide meant less plant growth, thus less CO2 removed).
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
Reply to  TexasTim65
There weren’t any unusual volcanic eruptions not exceptional wildfires that would have made up the shortfall and that comes from the scientists themselves. For the moment they do not explain it away but they do say that the data is too noisy as the reason the data doesn’t fit the modeled drop. Nevertheless many of them know that what should have happened didn’t happen.
Dutoit
Dutoit
2 years ago
I think that Gail Tverberg is right : in the near future the problems (especially for China and India) will come mainly from the gradual decrease of ressources in oil, coal and gas.
Casual_Observer2020
Casual_Observer2020
2 years ago
I don’t know much about climate models. I do know that the place I’ve lived the last 10 years has changed so dramatically in terms of how much precipitation we get and the times in which it occurs. We effectively have a 5th season I call fire season instead of transition to rainfall we use to get in early October. That has now been deferred at last until late November to early December and some years even late December.  Fire season starts earlier every year and has effectively become what use to be late summer and into late fall.  I don’t know anything about climate models but this is the first place I’ve lived where the climate has changed so rapidly in 11 years. We’ve had three 500-year events in 3 of the last 5 years.  It could all go back to “normal” but I don’t plan for it to. It is more likely that this is the new normal. I hope everyone here is alive in 30 years and we will see how things evolve.  Best wishes to all.
Dutoit
Dutoit
2 years ago
You are lucky : warming produces more rainfalls (and cooling drought). This has been observed in prehistory. And the climate models also tell this.
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago

California
like all Mediterranean climates has wide swings in precipitation and wildfires
are a feature. In Mediterranean Europe they cope by managing the environment
around the villages so the fire doesn’t reach them and they have been doing it
that way for thousands of years. The scenic hilltop villages were on hilltops
not for defence against neighbors but rather defence against wildfires.

KidHorn
KidHorn
2 years ago
Reply to  Doug78
Absolutely. You can’t just look at 10 years of history and conclude the climate has changed. In the 1800s California wildfires were far more common and severe than they are now.
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
“It could all go back to “normal” but I don’t plan for it to.”
There is no normal. The 1930’s were hot in the U.S., then it got colder. Talk was of another ice age by the 1970’s.
AWC
AWC
2 years ago
Awe, man, now you tell me, after I bought this future beachfront property in Arizona?
ohno
ohno
2 years ago
“Now what”: The lunatic libtard brigade ignores the science and press forward with all their idiotic BS and leave a torn civilization in it’s wake trying to achieve their BS goals and leave the rest of us holding a huge bag of their dirty diapers while they are still being voted in by idiotic supporters and banking millions the entire time. What else would happen lol.
whirlaway
whirlaway
2 years ago
“… Says World Will End in 12 Years”

From the context, it should be clear what the speaker is referring to.   Obviously, it is not that the material that constitutes the planet will get destroyed (that is estimated to take 7.6 billion years).   Nor is it referring to the end of all life on Earth (2.8 billion years) or all multicellular life (900 million years).  Even a supervolcanic eruption or a major asteroid strike will not be able to end all life on the planet, let alone the world itself. 

All this is fairly well-known, and it is also known that these estimates necessarily involve educated guesswork.
So, the “will end in 12 years” can only be referring to human civilization as we know it.    Not to the existence of all human life, or all life on this planet or the existence of the planet itself.   
Doug78
Doug78
2 years ago
Reply to  whirlaway
World Will End in 12 Years” is just a catchy election slogan. Few who say it believe it.
WATERWIZ
WATERWIZ
2 years ago
The Global Warming meme, now called Climate Change, is just over 40 years old.
Its main belief is that carbon dioxide is a major “greenhouse ” gas.   For all practical purposes, it is not  what “they” mean by a “greenhouse” gas.  
If there is any “greenhouse ” gas it is water vapor.
Clearly there are no scientists creating a model which does not work for 40 years, despite regular updates to the many codes.  A basic tenet of science is that if the theory does not produce the forecast results, the theory is wrong.  There are no exceptions to this rule.
Why do we still have such expensive, incompetent, multiple international, and national, climate office failures ?
Perhaps because the base assumption is not correct ?  That means the CO2 theory in fancy scientific jargon.
Taxpayers would like to know ?
whirlaway
whirlaway
2 years ago
Reply to  WATERWIZ
Well, scientists have known for decades and decades and decades that water vapor is a greenhouse gas and that it is responsible for 60-70 percent of the greenhouse effect.  They also know that CO2 is responsible for 25-30 percent.  But the fact is – even small changes in the latter can have an adverse impact. 

Think of it this way.  Normal human body temperature is 98.6F.  Imagine it split into two pieces – 70 and 28.6     The second part may seem insignificant compared to the first and therefore any rise in it might seem insignificant too.    But if it goes to 31 or 32, the total goes to 101 or 102.   That is considered to be fever and is not considered normal or anything like it.

Felix_Mish
Felix_Mish
2 years ago
I love computer models. They and graphs are wonderful ways to simply and easily get a grip on how the world works.
One thing I’ve learned about them is that a decent model always teaches me something rather than the other way around. That is to say, the model says X, but I know that not-X is true. And so, it’s debug time. And debug time. And debug time. Until I finally get my head out of where it is and realize the model is correct and I’m wrong.
Then I start trusting the model.
But if it’s only told me what I already expected, it’s a worthless waste of time.
I’d be curious to know what climate models have taught those who build them.
RunnerDan
RunnerDan
2 years ago
Reply to  Felix_Mish
The lesson learned:  It pays to get a gig where it doesn’t matter if your wrong!  Model makers the Fed Reserve uses know this well too.
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
2 years ago
Reply to  Felix_Mish
“Then I start trusting the model.”
And then, you are effed. At least unless people are still out there free to keep shooting holes in your model, until you no longer trust it.
Formally, the whole purpose of models is simplification. If you can accurately and completely describe a domain, you don’t need to model it. Hence, your model is always wrong.
In the commercial domain, being wrong is fine. Competitors will correct you. Once The One And Only Monopoly Which Actually Exists In The US gets involved in bullying people around and forcing them to act based on no more than some guaranteed-to-be-wrong model, things are most certainly no longer fine. At least not unless you consider that monopoly, and hence the world around you, being relieved of their duty and “liberated” by those who are their effective “competitors,” to be fine……
Felix_Mish
Felix_Mish
2 years ago
It comes as no particular surprise that countries populated by people who really, really, really want to use less energy are using less energy – according to their own measurements.
Now, apply such pressure to 2.1 million lines of code.
wmjack50
wmjack50
2 years ago
God created the earth and humanity—and as the Creator He controls the worlds  climate.. coastlines etc. until it all ends with His blessings
Humans always want to be God our original and continuing mistake in life
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
2 years ago
Reply to  wmjack50
“God created the earth and humanity—and as the Creator He controls the worlds  climate.. coastlines etc. until it all ends with His blessings”
And he created them all simple and predictable enough that even people can make some sort of limited sense out of how they behave and interact. Nature is no less a “scripture” than that other one is. And studying it, no more wanting to be God, than what clergy is involved in.
Of course, once either of those groups go beyond understanding, to instead forcing others based on their own, current, personal (inevatable mis-)understandings,…. things do go straight to h. Whether that be which burnings or censoring and “correcting” “climate deniers.” But the solution to all such problems were understood at the latest several hundred years ago: By the guys who wrote the US Constitutional Amendments. Especially, ultimately, The Second.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
My earlier comment went poof, into moderation purgatory. I’m going to add this, in case it stays gone.
I mainly wanted to link to the very best presentation on energy I’ve ever heard, which was presented in a Twitter space today by Dr. Anas AlhaJJI. He completely dismantles the mythos of our current narrative about energy transitions. 
Everybody in the whole country should listen to this man. Our current energy transition policies are highly ineffective, number one, and two, the decisions to punish oil exploration is bound to cause spectacular problems in the medium term. We are screwing up badly, and there will be some very negative consequences.
 
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
So..couple of points. One is that Judith Curry was writing about the problems with cloud modeling in her blog a year ago, and anyone who was reading her (and the folks to which she gives a forum) knew the new models predicting 4.5C temp rise on a doubling of CO2 weren’t right. It was a major focus of the blog for a few months, beginning in 2020.
Second point, I just listened today to a really smart guy named Dr. Anas AlhaJJI completely dismantle the entire ESG mythos…..it was absolutely the very best presentation about energy that I’ve ever experienced, and although it was quite long, you could probably get a lot out of the first 30  minutes or so….enough to know the narrative we’re being sold by the techno-aristocracy and the US government on renewables and on eV’s is not only false…..but that it is bound to fail in a spectacular way. This is because many of the most basic assumptions that house is built on are fallacious. 
One tidbit…..even if we were to get to the electric vehicle levels of adoption that are being called for now, with all the super-expensive infrastructure costs, the costs of the subsidies for green industries, the massive changes in how we build cars, and how we experience basic automobile transportation…..it would only lower CO2 emissions by 2%….from where we are now. That’s a direct quote from Dr. AlhaJJI, and he explains why…..in great detail in this Twitter space. Maybe you think you know more about energy than he does. I seriously doubt it.
Another tidbit. Only 5% of oil produced is used in transportation fuels. Most is used for other vital purposes, and our decision to quit trying to find new oil is going to have huge repercussions that nobody much has on their radar.
In my view every voter in the country should have to listen to this, so they might begin to understand exactly how badly we’re screwing up right now in our quest to rapidly decarbonize our energy production.
Webej
Webej
2 years ago
There is nothing new here.
  • The uncertainty about cloud modeling has been widely known and discussed for years, decades.
    It’s one of the reasons they work with model ensembles including scores of models and varying parameters on runs.
  • Hind-casting has been practised for decades, that’s the main way the models are evaluated.
  • As manufactures are outsourced to China/India, their emissions will increase as the West’s decrease … there is no virtue or sin here.
Nordhaus is an outlier, so his opinion lacks authority.
  • In terms of the costs, nobody knows the costs. All we know is that there is a risk those costs will be too high for humanity to pay.
TheWindowCleaner
TheWindowCleaner
2 years ago
Reply to  Webej
Right. Steve Keen has continually de-bunked Nordhaus in the most thorough way for some time now. Nordhaus in his paper claimed that climate change would not effect production for any industry that was conducted indoors. How laughably absurd is that kind of “analysis”?
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
2 years ago
Reply to  Webej
“All we know is that there is a risk those costs will be too high for humanity to pay.”
As well as that risk persisting even if we spend every penny humanity has, chasing down every rabbit hole “we” don’t understand, pretending to try mitigating them.
The proper response to a riskier future, is to increase liquidity. Not decrease it. Less commitments, not more. Wasting quadrillions on “we know effectively nothing yet but only pretend to” pipe dreams, which serve no other purpose than enriching and empowering hucksters; instead of saving those resources to deal with actual problems which materialize, is exactly NOT what to do in the face of increased future risk. Responding to increased risk by reducing liquidity, is what the system builders, at least in the financial domain, will recognize as a well known antipattern.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
2 years ago
This is why making macro level policies (ie country wide or even worldwide) based on an evolving science is a very bad idea. You end up chasing your tail every time the science evolves.
It’s much better to make micro level changes (local level, preferably at the individual person level) as grass root movements. On an individual level I mean LED light bulbs, better/more efficient insulation, windows that reflect heat in the summer and attract heat in the winter, electric cars, recycling programs etc. At the local level I mean switching to gas, wind, solar from coal when generating electricity.
One day we may accurately be able to predict things but remember, even if we somehow reach 90% accuracy, 1/10 times we could go the wrong way on a macro level scale and that would be a disaster.
Mish
Mish
2 years ago
Scientists discarded 13 of 39 models, those with the most dire predictions and those that could not explain the ice age. 
Guess which ones the media, the politicians, and the fearmongers most quoted.
Now the scientists struggle with clouds.
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
2 years ago
Reply to  Mish
And yet, “climate science” is still largely limiting itself to equilibria models….
Throw phase issues into the mix, and complexity increases another near-infinite-fold…. Despite everyone deep down “knowing” that 40 years of measurements (even those very limited) of cyclical phenomena which can last 10,000 years or more, makes it virtually impossible to untangle lasting equilibria changes from mere phase effects.
TheWindowCleaner
TheWindowCleaner
2 years ago
“You don’t need a weatherman to tell which way the wind is blowing” and the same is true of determining whether or not CO2 is effecting the climate. Yes, we definitely need nuclear, and Greens need to just shut up and allow it. But I don’t need conservative and libertarian economic pundits pissing and moaning about things when they’re so innured to the present monetary paradigm that they can’t/refuse to see that a single policy of a 50% discount to consumers at retail sale, all of which discount is rebated back to the merchant granting it so they can be made whole on their overheads and profit margins would banish inflation forever and implement their wet dreams of beneficial price and asset deflation. Change the monetary paradigm and change the world. There are just as many conservative/libertarian numbskulls as ther are liberal ones. Both need to try thinking a new thought.
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
2 years ago
“”You don’t need a weatherman to tell which way the wind is blowing” and the same is true of determining whether or not CO2 is effecting the climate.”
While that is true, there is still no benefit from having a totalitarian government rob everyone into destitution in order to build quadrillion dollar fans forcing the wind to blow in the exact same direction it did on the very day Biden first got laid. Instead of just getting out of the way, letting people adjust their sails to deal with actual changes in wind as they materialize.
Dr_Novaxx
Dr_Novaxx
2 years ago
Most people do what they get paid to do.  Climate Scientists get paid to produce evidence of Climate Change especially greenhouse gas effects primarily targeting human activity as the culprit that “needs to be stopped.”  It’s a complete corruption of Science and it needs to be stopped before they bankrupt us all for no good reason.  Removing CO2 from the atmosphere is foolish & damages the atmosphere, hindering plant growth.  Removing CH4 is futile because it bubbles up from the ground & seabeds all over the world at rates that far exceed anything produced by petroleum processing, and it has a very short chemical half-life in the atmosphere since it is not inert.
whirlaway
whirlaway
2 years ago
Reply to  Dr_Novaxx
Climate scientists that are paid by the public get paid to do studies on climate.   If the scientists are employed by the fossil fuel companies, that would be a different thing.
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
2 years ago
Reply to  whirlaway
Guys who were paid to “do studies” on Jewish crania, would no longer get paid if their studies didn’t come to the “right” conclusions….
whirlaway
whirlaway
2 years ago
Reply to  Dr_Novaxx
And if the scientists paid by the fossil fuel industries do come to the same conclusion (which they did FORTY YEARS ago), what would that mean then?!

link to scientificamerican.com

Dr_Novaxx
Dr_Novaxx
2 years ago
Reply to  whirlaway
Just curious – are there any self-employed Climate Scientists?  You know, that could go door-to-door asking if anyone would donate to pay for their time to look at clouds, from both sides, now & forevermore?
Quark711
Quark711
2 years ago
No, wait! The “science” is settled
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
2 years ago
Reply to  Quark711
Science is never settled. Period. Climate science being no different from the “science” “showing” that Iran is a threat, or whatever is the nonsensical scare du jour. Or that “The US is Racist.” Or whatnot.
Which is fine. The problem is never “science.” Just as the problem is never “religion.”
Instead, the problem is, as always, Government. Always looking for nonsensical, excuses for intervening in the lives of others. A few hundred years ago, “What God said” was “settled.” So it was OK for the totalitarians to harass people based on that. Today, things are exactly the same. Just now, the excuse is that it is “science” which is “settled.” Not “What God says” (at least outside of Iran…) No different at all. Just the same old Government. Of stupid humans. Doing nothing beneficial. Just harassing others, based on whatever trivially nonsensical drivel they can get away with, at any given time.
RonJ
RonJ
2 years ago
Models as misinformation.
Anymouse
Anymouse
2 years ago
As a retired atmospheric scientist with more than passing understanding of climate science, this is what we “skeptics” have been saying for years.
Climate models cannot definitely tell us the sign of the cloud feedback (warming or cooling).
What has been deliberately ignored by AGW zealots and green advocates is that as improved as the models are, almost all fail to capture shorter term oscillations like ENSO (La Nina and El Niño), let alone longer term oscillations such as the PDO or the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation.
Recent studies are validating arguments that much of what is being blamed for recent warming is due to what we call internal variability (e.g., Li, Z., Ding, Q., Steele, M. et al. Recent upper Arctic Ocean warming expedited by summertime atmospheric processes. Nat Commun 13, 362 (2022). link to doi.org). 
And the little known secret of the climate modelers is that because of the scale and long time periods of climate models (decades to centuries), know atmospheric parameter Is actually explicitly modeled. They’re all parameterized. And the parameterization is tuned based on the the modelers themselves as a best guess (e.g., ECS, or the effect of doubling CO2 on temperature increase).
And climate models will run up against the same thing weather models are now running up against: non linearity issues related to inexact initialization and parameterization.
And for the record, CO2 is a minute grace has.
My 2 centavos.
Eddie_T
Eddie_T
2 years ago
Reply to  Anymouse
I was reading about this cloud modeling issue more than year ago on Dr. Judith Curry’s blog, which is one of the few educated and honest views on climate  change that I’ve found. 
whirlaway
whirlaway
2 years ago
Reply to  Eddie_T
” In an interview with Michael Lemonick for Scientific American in October 2010, Curry admitted she had received financial support from Big Oil. “I do receive some funding from the fossil fuel industry. My company…does hurricane forecasting…for an oil company, since 2007.”    “
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
2 years ago
If you haven’t developed your own model, based on your own experieces, you would likely be buffeted by who said what.
My own experience in the mountains is that the glaciers are retreating, and just in a space of a decade or so.
I consider scientific modeling of weather with about the same veracity as central banker’s clairvoyance about inflation and economy.
Yooper
Yooper
2 years ago
Frankly, the most horrible political graph is the per capita emissions. The earth cares not one little bit about how much CO2 is given off per person in each country. Total emissions, sure, but a per capita graph has no bearing to the science at all. China per capita emission may be half ours in the US, but at 4 times the population still makes them the problem.

Mish
Mish
2 years ago
Reply to  Yooper
I selected that graph with care and it does show the problem. China and India are the largest population centers. The US and EU are comparable. The trends in that chart are very important and obviously so to anyone understanding global populations. Admittedly, I could have left of the UK but that is nitpicking. 
Webej
Webej
2 years ago
Reply to  Mish
China & India trends reflect where stuff is being made.
If we could change the graph to show where the stuff is consumed, it would be more lopsided against Western ‘progress’.
whirlaway
whirlaway
2 years ago
Reply to  Mish
US and EU are comparable??!!   US is at nearly 15t per capita and EU is just about 6t per capita.   If you said *UK* and EU are comparable that would be one thing.   
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
2 years ago
Reply to  whirlaway
I believe Mish meant the US and EU were comparable in population, not in emissions per capita. He was responding to a comment about countries with large populations being the issue.
whirlaway
whirlaway
2 years ago
Reply to  Mish
Taking another look at the chart, if the US were to reduce its per capita CO2 emissions by 6t (which would bring their per capita emissions to 8t – still the highest of any country in the world) it would have the same effect as India lowering its CO2 emissions ALL THE WAY to ZERO.  
Jmurr
Jmurr
2 years ago
Great article. It seems that trees and clouds are more effective than anything the States do to curb climate change. 
Mish
Mish
2 years ago
Reply to  Jmurr
I learned a lot from that article but it highlighted my overall concern regarding the hype. Even IF the hype was correct (it wasn’t) the demands of AOC, Gretta, and all the fearmongering shills are scientifically undoable. 
Freebees2me
Freebees2me
2 years ago
What next?
Simple: keep lying!!!
Lying pays…
StukiMoi
StukiMoi
2 years ago
Reply to  Freebees2me
never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”
In financialized dystopias, being stupid and clueless enough to believe you understand something, is what pays. If you truly believe what you erroneously babble about, chances are the other clueless idiots, which are the ones financialization redistributes all wealth to, will believe so as well. After all, just like you, they are stupid and clueless too. All of them.
Then, they will “invest” in you. Such that you “make money” from your stupidity and cluelessness. And then you, and the other clueless idiots, will believe that since you have “made money”, you must be “smart.” Rather than just stupid clueless, which is what you, all of you, really are.
The above is the most accurate condensed description of America as of now, that you are likely to hear. Perhaps in your entire lifetime. Which is kind of sad, but…..

Stay Informed

Subscribe to MishTalk

You will receive all messages from this feed and they will be delivered by email.