The US sent six F-16s to Ukraine. A Ukrainian pilot reportedly just crashed one of them. What happened?
The Wall Street Journal comments on the Crash of an F-16 in Ukraine.
A Ukrainian pilot was killed in combat when his F-16 jet fighter crashed Monday, just weeks after the first of the American-made aircraft arrived in Ukraine, according to U.S. and Ukrainian officials.
The pilot, Oleksiy Mes, died while helping to repel a massive Russian missile attack on Monday, the officials said. Initial reports indicate the jet wasn’t shot down by enemy fire, U.S. officials said.
The Ukrainian Air Force said Mes, was killed in combat while helping repel the missile attack Monday. The General Staff of Ukraine’s armed forces said contact had been lost with the jet while it was approaching its next target.
A person close to the Ukrainian military said the cause of the crash was unknown and an investigation was under way. The person described Mes as a hero who successfully shot down multiple Russian missiles on Monday before the crash.
The news that one of Ukraine’s few F-16s has been destroyed, and one of its most well-known pilots killed, is a major blow to Kyiv, which had pleaded for the jets for months before President Biden gave the green light for European countries to transfer the aircraft last year.
Kyiv hopes the advanced Western aircraft will give its forces an edge on the battlefield, particularly to shoot down incoming Russian missiles and help protect troops on the front lines. But the F-16s, many of which are secondhand and have decades of flying time already, are vulnerable to Russian air defense missiles and present a high-value target for Moscow’s forces.
U.S. officials also have warned about the dangers of sending pilots inexperienced on F-16s into combat. While Mes and other Ukrainian pilots now flying the F-16 are skilled in flying Soviet jets against the Russians, they went through an accelerated training course to learn to operate the American jets.
A newly minted American F-16 pilot typically wouldn’t fly in combat for many months after completing their training, spending additional time flying in-country with their unit.
A second U.S. official noted that the training curriculum for Ukrainian F-16s was “not standard,” noting that the program was focused on specific missions they would likely face in combat. “There’s still, very frankly, risk there,” the official said.
Questions of the Day
- How does a pilot crash a jet out of the blue?
- If the jet was shot down, then was it friendly fire or enemy fire?
- Either way, would a skilled U.S.-pilot have avoided being shot down?
- Was there a mechanical failure?
- Heart attack or other medical issue?
I struggle to accept option number one, even if training is the issue.
Nonetheless, assume option number one is true. What does that say given Mes was one of Ukraine’s best-trained pilots?
If option number one is false, then we are left with options 2, 3, or serious mechanical or physical failure.
If the issue was a mechanical error, would a skilled U.S.-pilot have avoided a crash, ejected?
Anything other than option five poses further complications for someone.
What Really Happened?
We don’t have the full story here, and perhaps never will because Ukraine suppresses death tolls and exaggerates Russian losses.
Of course, Russia does the same. And the US might not want to cover up the details as well.
Germany to Eliminate “New” Aid
On August 19, I reported Nord Stream Pipeline Blowback: Germany to Stop All New Aid to Ukraine
Some said my post was wrong because Germany is not halting aid.
This is despite the fact my title and the body said “new” but without the quotes.
Reduced Aid to Ukraine
Eurointelligence reported today “Poland following Germany to cut aid to Ukraine.”
I have no details. That is paywalled.
But Germany is cutting off new aid. Poland is about to do the same. This is despite the fact that Poland shares a border with both Ukraine and Russia.
France is ungovernable and in the midst of its own budget crisis. So rule out France for more aid.
Wall Street Journal Wants the US to Escalate the War
Yesterday, thew WSJ editorial board commented ATACMS and Russia’s Sanctuary
Weapons scarcity is another reason Ukraine needs ATACMS to strike Russian targets. It’s a more efficient use of resources to take out threats at their origin rather than trying to intercept each incoming strike, as Ukraine is currently forced to do.
The Biden Administration fears Mr. Putin might escalate his war if Ukraine puts more of his military at risk, but the war isn’t winding down. [Seems like a legitimate fear to me.]
The U.S. can strengthen Ukraine’s position and make negotiations to end the war more likely by removing the restrictions that preserve Russia’s sanctuary.
The editorial board wants the US to send more missiles to Ukraine and for Ukraine to launch them at Russia.
Then the Journal will bitch about rising US deficits and tax hikes to pay for them.
Presumably, Russia will just let this happen and not resort to a “limited” nuclear attack in response.
Ukraine is increasingly dependent on US, about 5,600 mile away.
What’s next: US secret pilots? Nuclear war?
It’s easy to discount both of them as very unlikely. But every escalation makes them increasingly likely, even if the odds are small.
Shame, Shame
Shame on the US for causing this entire mess. It started with US involvement in 2014.
However, I do not approve of Russia’s actions. So shame on Russia. But the US knew Russia’s red lines and ignored them.
Shame on UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson for telling Zelensky not to take a Peace Deal shortly after the invasion. Johnson pressured Kyiv into continuing the fight. David Arahamiya, the leader of Ukraine’s ruling party confirmed in an interview.
Finally, shame on Zelensky for not accepting a good deal when he had one.
Yeah, there is plenty of shame!
Negotiated Settlement
This war will end the way I suggested at the beginning: a negotiated settlement with Russia holding Crimea and parts of what is now Eastern Ukraine.
The only questions that remain are:
How many more deaths will it take, how much more US aid goes up in smoke, and whether or not escalations get out of hand triggering a major catastrophe.
“Ukrainian Defense Minister Rustem Umerov told CNN the Biden administration is still considering his request to lift restrictions on Ukraine using long-range weapons to strike deeper inside Russian territory and confirmed he’d presented a list of targets in meetings with senior officials in Washington on Friday”
Someone please inform me who is actually in the “White House” making decisions quietly leading us into WWIII?
Confident sons and daughters of ruling elites will participate on front lines (after their phd courses are completed in LGBT+2S impact on Asian ancient culture studies are completed)
Meanwhile on the eastern front, per ZH: “The top general confronted Sullivan on growing US support for Taiwan’s military. Zhang informed Sullivan that reunification of Taiwan with the mainland is “the mission and responsibility” of the Chinese PLA military and that it won’t be deterred. Sullivan looked nervous and unsettled throughout the whole encounter, with Zhang confident and beaming.”
In the new age of warfare, drones and missiles; aircraft carriers are sitting ducks. Formosa always a part of China: Consider remnants of Confederate government holding an island off US mainland for decades.
Negotiation, not saber rattling, is the solution – long term transfer of power. (No fat profits for defense contractors generated by peace though, so war it is :0( )
what a bunch of bunk. this was a fantastic gift to the reason amerika is involved. more money for the MIC executive bonus pool. we don’t do anything except for a few shekels. a horrible crumbling empire which will set fire to ukraine and israel or afpak or iraq or libya for shekels………..end of story. and old story in world.
Shame on Mish for repeatedly quoting a US mainstream publication on the topic of a US proxy war – and even sometimes quoting the fantasies that Kiev spins.
I don’t believe there will be any negotiations – Russia will do what it has to do.
The US Neocons are not going to drop this war. They may intensify the war through actions that trap Trump and make it impossible for Trump to work his way out. The Neocons and the Biden Administration want war. They want to break up Russia. They want Russian assets; even Senator Graham stated this a month ago. These Neocons are fucking idiots. They have not yet won a war and spent billions trying. Remember who they sent over to Ukraine before the Russian invasion. Our VP, Ms. Chuckles, and told Ukraine they would be accepted into NATO. Gee, I wonder why Putin attacked?
Ukraine supplied US Patriot Missile System was what brought down the F-16, so it was a friendly fire..
Not surprised by the COVER UP by Ukraine and the West MSM!!!!
Sounds like the FoF has been disabled on the F-16’s or Patriot Missile Systems!!!
Question is why???
U.S. operated Patriots have only ever killed “Blue Air” in the past, so it would be little surprise IF that might have happened. I’m doubtful though and believe they’re expecting way too much from the Ukrainian pilots whose upgrade / “difference” training was way too short, and was destined to get some pilots killed.
Agree, Patriots suck, but it’s much easier to hit a plane than a missile. WSJ will tell us what happened – maybe 20 years from now.
i wouldn’t pay a dime for a lifetime subsription to the war street journal. murdoch ruined what was a fine paper i read since i was a kid in the early 70s
Great news! A celebration is in order.
Friendly fire is the word on the street
There is no evidence the F-16s have intercepted any Russian missiles.
The Ukrainian statistics about missile interceptions are completely unbelievable and bogus to begin with.
The chance that we will ever get truthful reports on the fate of the F-16s is very low.
Not every war ends with negotiations.
Some end with capitulations; some with utter extinction of the adversary.
The Soviets famously said they were morally justified to erase Germany completely, but decided not to.
All the talk in Russia recently is no negotiations: We already knew there was no one to talk to, and recent events have shown the adversary cannot be brought to reason and must therefore be destroyed.
There is also talk of nuclear strikes on the UK or Europe, and Kursk is being billed as a direct NATO/American invasion. Lavarov has just said that the US deludes itself thinking the US can safely watch the nuclear fire from behind its ocean moat: the US mainland will not escape nuclear fire if it comes down to it. Russia does not believe in measured nuclear confrontation — and a preemptive nuclear strike against the US has now become a topic.
The Russian long-term aim is the dissolution of NATO (obviously: NATO is a Russophobic alliance with a single root, enmity towards Russia). NATO does not have the ability or resources to fight Russia with conventional means. Every attempt to up the ante steels Russian resolve and brings us closer to thermonuclear exchange.
Theoretically NATO is a mutual defense pact against invasion. I’ve never seen any Estonians helping defend the US southern border.
Theoretically, Libya and Serbia attacked NATO, that’s why NATO bombed them. But only theoretically.
The Lithuanians are discussing attacking and seizing Kaliningrad which is a Russian exclave on their border, with assumed NATO help. Kaliningrad is a secondary naval base for the Russian Baltic fleet. The Russian subs operating out of there are no joke whatever you think of the Russian surface fleet.
Because of its importance and the fact that the base is surrounded by likely enemies, they have an expanded brigade defense force there which is one of the best equipped and supplied brigades in the Russian army. In addition, the Russians have hundreds of missiles stationed there. That brigade has five times as many combat troops as Lithuania has and most of theirs are stationed on the opposite side of the country on the Lithuanian/Belarus border. (for good reason)
Estonia says they have worked out a plan with Finland to blockade the Russian Baltic fleet in its home port of St. Petersburg. They will seize or destroy any Russian naval ship trying to run the blockade (with NATO help of course)
Both Kaliningrad and the Russian Baltic fleet have numerous tactical nuclear weapons and at least some I.C.B.M.s.
Even if the Russians decided not to use their most powerful weapons to prevent them from falling into enemy hands, they definitely will defend them with everything else they have. It is hard to see how such combat will not detonate at least one of them which by their nature will cause the rest to cook off. The consequence beyond the obvious surface destruction to all the adjacent countries will be multiple radioactive tidal waves sloshing back and forth in the Baltic Sea. Those tidal waves will inundate the coastal valleys and run inland up the rivers. Best scenario…..The entire Baltic region will be unlivable for a thousand years.
I have not heard one NATO executive officer, not one NATO national leader, not one NATO country prominent politician stand up and denounce any such plans.
Those plans exist. I know because I live in the Baltics. The countries involved are proud of such plans and openly refer to them as an indication of their support for NATO and the confidence they have that NATO will support them in any such efforts.
All equipped by Zircons nowadays.
Doesn’t matter what the boats are like, the NATO boats will be sunk while they are out of range and without viable defenses.
Meanwhile we have no actual President at the helm and an incompetent VP sitting down for a curated interview. What could go wrong globally? Vacuum of leadership.
Everything is a conspiracy. Sigh.
The plane got shot down. Happens in war. Send replacements Biden! Or US pilots if you believe they can do better.
Kamala : I was sexually abused by Trump. I am not a whore selling my body for political gains. Hillary didn’t become lesbian after her husband infidelities.
When will the United States learn? More money + More weapons = More death
And for what?
Keep the world population down?
Biden Harris did say she wants to reduce population.
thats a side effect, the main point is to make lots of money.
More Profit, a war machine needs money, its the whole point of being a war machine. The government of the USA and the Citizens of the USA diverged long ago around the time of Viet Nam.
Eisenhower told everybody what was happening, but it was too late ..
Enemy F-16 flying less than 40km from a nuclear plant should be shot down asap.
Coal plants are safer than nuclear plant. Terrorist blowing up a large nuclear plant
can kill millions.
Coal plants are already killing millions and going to kill millions and millions more and destroying the earth.
The US and England are guarantors of the Budapest Pact, Russia violated it and invaded Ukraine, generating a genocide, the US has the moral obligation to give all the help to Ukraine to win the war. No country in the world will ever trust the US again, they are cowards.
The Budapest Memorandum. It’s not a treaty. It was never presented to or passed by the U.S. Senate. It also called for the Ukraine to remain neutral, not to try to join NATO. The UN Security Council (including theUS) voted to enact Minsk II, was promptly violated by the Ukraine at the direction of the Empire of Lies. No country in the world should trust the U.S. because it reneges on any agreement whenever it wants to. It also encourages countries to expect the U.S. to defend them when they never will – at least for long enough. The Marsh Arabs of Iraq for example. The Ukraine signed up to be an American forward base to be used against Russia. As Otter told Flounder in Animal House: “you F’d up. You trusted us.”
The U.S. will also be unable to perpetually prevent Taiwan from being reintegrated into China, and to pretend otherwise is immoral.
Oh shut the hell up you GCHQ troll. “Russia violated it.”. Russia could see the writing on the wall and decided to act pre-emptively.
For both you and Mish (“However, I do not approve of Russia’s actions. So shame on Russia.”): who the hell are we to judge the actions of a country that has been invaded multiple times over the last 200+ years (Crimean War, Napolean’s invasion, Hitler’s invasion) and subjected to total war? They lost 20 *million* people in WWII. They lost more people in each of 3 battles than the US lost in the whole war.
Which country has a worldwide military presence and over 800 bases outside its borders? Which country foments color revolutions all over the world? Does Russia do that?
To hell with your talk of a moral obligation. Are you on the front lines in Ukraine right now? Are you giving your last penny to fund Ukraine’s war effort? If not, why not? Why are you so into Slavs killing Slavs? What is wrong with you?
The jet was shot down by a Patriot missile in a case of friendly fire. 2 of the 6 jets have been destroyed already
That’s a theory and it is covered by my point #2 and point #3
2: If the jet was shot down, then was it friendly fire or enemy fire?
3: Either way, would a skilled U.S.-pilot have avoided being shot down?
Hal Turner says shot down by Ukrainians because pilot was in wrong area.
1 down, 5 to go. Boof!
Way to go, Kackles!
This is called cannon fodder.
The USA did not cause the conflict in Ukraine. Putin alone is responsible for the carnage. Putin violated the agreement set after Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal in the 90s. Ukraine was a peaceful country until evil Putin unleashed the dogs of war starting in 2014, Putin took advantage of Democrat weakness in 2014 and especially 2022. Russia cannot be trusted in any agreement. If Ukraine will only agree under extreme duress. Putin is new Hitler type of maniacal despot.
The precursor of this has roots going back to the Reagan administration. In State Department documents (you can find online) there are frank discussions between James Baker (Sec. of State) and Mikhail Gorbachev (USSR president) & Eduard Shevardnadze (USSR foreign minister). In the US State Department communiques, James Baker states that “NATO will not move one-inch to the east”.
Starting with the Clinton administration, over a dozen countries have been added to NATO, many bumping up against the Russian border.
Is poking a bear going to provoke an attack?
Hitler Schmitler.
The big Hitler fans are in Galicia.
If the head of NATO says, in a public address, that NATO expansion is the source of this conflict. You might just consider believing him.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~:text=The%20background%20was%20that%20President%20Putin%20declared%20in%20the%20autumn%20of%202021%2C%20and%20actually%20sent%20a%20draft%20treaty%20that%20they%20wanted%20NATO%20to%20sign%2C%20to%20promise%20no%20more%20NATO%20enlargement.%20That%20was%20what%20he%20sent%20us.%20And%20was%20a%20pre%2Dcondition%20for%20not%20invade%20Ukraine.%20Of%20course%20we%20didn%27t%20sign%20that.
I thought Trump was the new Hitler, can the department of propaganda get this story straight. If everybody is hitler, who are the good guys? Macron? The Red Chinese, so many new hitlers, what to do with all the old Hitlers?
The US 1000% provoked the Ukraine war. You’d have to be stupid to believe otherwise at this point.
Pale face speak with forked tongue.
Deaths, huh?? I haven’t heard of any deaths to the US elite … so what’s the beef?
I believe it was a F-16 donated by Danemark. How it crashed has not been released yet but F-16s have been busy shooting down Russian cruise missiles so it could have crashed during one of those sorties. There is a big war going on and planes crash and get shot down. We lost a few too during desert Storm. Ukraine will get more planes as time goes on.
In the meantime China has nixed Russia’s hope of a pipeline from their east Siberian gas fields to China as expected and Chinese banks have stopped handling Russian transactions because of secondary sanctions kicking in. Ukraine’s incursion into Russia itself has changed perceptions inside and outside of Russia.
Lots more going on but few here would be interested.
P.S. Russian inflation is accelerating. They had a bond auction yesterday and the 15 year hit 16.16% yield, a new record.
It was friendly fire that shot down the F16.
As an FYI, the US flew 29000 fighter sorties (missions) in Desert Storm and lost only 14 aircraft. Ukraine has lost 1 in probably less than 20 flights.
Could be but we don’t know yet. In any case the Russians have lost 14 aircraft to friendly fire and they admitted to each one.
The Russians are generally trustworthy.
They said it was friendly fire themselves. They could have been shot down by Ukraine and the Russians didn’t want to admit it but that is a long shot.
Are you saying you’ll believe your told by US and Ukrainian propagandist? Explains a lot about thinking.
If so, same thing happens in every war. [shrug]
Desert Storm was a turkey shoot against a barely armed non-adversary.
Many of the battles were won by paying the Iraqi commanders in advance.
What possible lessons could there be for an actual war?
rule 1, always play the Yellow Cake Game at the UN.
“… few here would be interested.” // I have zero interest. Now 77yrs 8mts, I’ve known of Wars since I was a very young boy. My dad, Army, early spring of 1942 to Germany’s surrender in 1945: North Africa, Sicily, Italy, France, Germany; very fortunate to survive, only mentally wounded. In 1st Grade, son of family friends Drafted to Korea, survived but received a Dear John Letter while there, never married. Me, eldest of 3 boys, Viet Nam, Army 1968, only mentally wounded, lost 5 buddies there. Middle brother, Viet Nam, Marines 1970, only mentally wounded. Youngest brother, severe asthma since a child, 4-F; I’m thankful for that. No end to Wars across Earth, until the End. // Don’t thank me for my Service. Perhaps well intended, but hollow. // From: Hunter Garth, 26, a veteran who fought in Afghanistan: “I pulled the trigger. You didn’t. Don’t take that away from me.” (archivenytimescom) 🔦✝️
Ukraine invaded the Kursk, but Putin doesn’t care. Time on his side. Meanwhile the Russians carved Pokrovsk a logistic ctr in the Donetsk. Zelensky threatened Kursk nuclear plant, 25 miles from the war zone, less than a 1 min flight for F-16. The war in Ukraine will not end this year. It will take years. Bibi nominate a general as Jasa civilian governor. Israel will take care of the strip, instead of the UN and UNRA. Hamas faked a poll results : only 32% Palestinians support Hamas, not 76%. The IDF cont to mop up Iranian terrorist cells in the west bank. In the 14 century the Shia and the Sunis became mortal enemies. The Ayatollah : we have to focus on our real enemies, the brutal Sunis, who want to takeover the world, instead of Israel.
Don’t worry, the US will put it on Ukraine’s tab. Ukraine is good for it.
It’s a Danish F-16 and they paid for it already.
They paid for it with what money? Their entire economy – such as it is – is being subsided by the US.
Their entire economy?? You are going off the deep end.
This war will end the way I suggested at the beginning: a negotiated settlement with Russia holding Crimea and parts of what is now Eastern Ukraine.
—
I predict Russia will end up with what they started with or less. They are lucky an F-16 hasn’t crashed into the Kremlin.
Multiple reports I have recently read are stating that the F-16 was shot down by friendly fire from a Ukrainian Patriot missile system. Reasons given are lack of coordination & communication.
Or far more likely, coverup to avoid the embarrassment
Remember this is the same country that shot down flight MH17 in 2014 and covered it up.
also bombed their own nuclear reactor.
Circular reporting probably.
Somebody is making Money somewhere on this . . .
Yes, “hunt” down the money … be the “Hunter”. Be careful and don’t biden your time.
And, it ain’t the US tax payer ; )
The Democrats will keep the war going past the Election to save face. Trump said he will negotiate an end to the War. If Democrats win again then Kamala will follow the orders of her and Joes handlers. So it’s either Trump or Kamala’s handlers who will determine if this War game ends in 2025.
Questions of the day.
6.Kamikaze the kamikaze drone/missile.
7.Made by Boeing.
Ukraine makes their own and they work much better.
As a former Navy pilot, anything can go wrong and usually will, but I was initially worried they would push the Ukrainian pilots through training too fast, for political reasons, especially when they are used to flying Soviet-era jets and not the F-16 Falcon. This particular pilot would appear to be a big loss to the Ukrainians given his experience.
Does this give the US justification to use US pilots? I mean, how would anyone know who is flying the F-16?
I’m not for it, just wondering how the brass in DC sees things.
Pretty sure the “brass” is Jake Sullivan, acting president for foreign affairs. He is a dolt and a sociopath, which is why Biden Harris should be asked whether she’s going to retain Sullivan and Blinken.
It’s already justified but not authorized.
A great loss for Ukraine = victory!
Dont forget to add number 6>
6. COVID 19
7) recycled F-16.
The Ukrainian pilots haven’t had enough time. I believe 2 other pilots died in a training mishap that involved this pilot. They cannot train existing pilots as the pilot unlearn what they have been trained in the new aircraft as when missiles fly all pilots revert back, in this case to old Soviet strategy.
Who knows what happened. We may not know for some time. If the Russians are good at something militarily it is air defense.
Mish, nuclear war is not a tragedy. It is stupid.
a thing can be 2 things, stupid and tragic..
I challenge these statements about lack of training time. People can learn whole programming languages in 3-6 months.
All the F-16 Ukraine trained pilots were experienced pilots going in. All they had to learn was the new UI and gain the feel of the plane. They did plenty of simulator time prior to actual training, so all they really needed was flying time.
If they were not new pilots, it is almost impossible. The F16 is digital. The Soviet equivalents are analog. Soviet tactics are completely different. F16 pilots will tell you it is a 3 year training process if they unlearn the old habits. I’m guessing you are a Dem War Monger.
Apparently there was an accident that killed 2 pilots in training and the recent lost pilot’s plane crashed. Just not that easy.
I’m not a pilot but I seriously doubt it as easy as you make it out to be. Using the comparison with programming languages – as a software engineer myself – sure you can ‘learn’ the syntax in 6 months but you’re not going to be an effective contributor without alot of handholding even if you have experience in another development ecosystem.