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Let’s Discuss the Rolling Recession Idea and How Long It Might Last

Image from video Tweet below.

“Housing went into recession, but we have the offsetting lift on the services side, so that has kept the labor market afloat.”

“But we are going to continue to see weakness roll through the economy. And weather it’s declared an official recession, it’s almost an academic exercise at this point.”

Real Recession?

I think we are in recession and a real one. But I also think there will not be a big jump in the unemployment rate. 

Expect a Long Period of Weak Growth, Whether or Not It’s Labeled Recession

And I agree with Sonders that it’s an academic exercise and said so months ago. 

On August 19, I commented Expect a Long Period of Weak Growth, Whether or Not It’s Labeled Recession

Lost in the debate over whether recession has started, is the observation that it doesn’t matter much either way.

Expect a long period of weak growth, no matter how it’s labeled.

This time there will not be bailouts. Nor will the Fed quickly reverse on interest rate policy out of fear of stimulating more inflation and unwanted demand.

It does not matter whether you label this a recession or not. Besides, the NBER might not even announce the recession until it’s over. That happened once already.

What About Jobs?

  • The Covid-recession was very short, two months, not even a full quarter of declining growth. The pandemic was also accompanied by the greatest job losses in history.
  • I expect the opposite of the Covid-recession: A long period of weak growth accompanied by relatively strong unemployment numbers. 

I constantly press the idea that a recession has started and I was too early thinking one would start in May or June. 

I am doing it again now.

Welcome to the Global Recession, It Began in December Last Year

On February 7, I said Welcome to the Global Recession, It Began in December Last Year

Let’s go over the data.

Signs Say Industrial Production Has Peaked and so a Recession is Imminent

Recession lead times in months based on Fed data.

On January 18, 2023, I commented Signs Say Industrial Production Has Peaked and so a Recession is Imminent

Industrial production decreased 0.7 percent in December and 1.7 percent at an annual rate in the fourth quarter. 

Industrial Production Synopsis

  • Industrial production peaked in October
  • Manufacturing peaked in April with a double top in September
  • Consumer durable goods peaked in April
  • Manufacturing durable goods peaked in September
  • Motor vehicles and parts peaked in October

Recession lead times vs industrial production tend to be very small, typically 1-2 month. 2001 and 2020 were notable exceptions.

Existing Home Sales Decline for the Eleventh Straight Month

Existing home sales from the National Association of Realtors via St. Louis Fed

It was nearly a clean sweep for existing home sales in 2022, down every month except January.

For details, please see Existing Home Sales Decline for the Eleventh Straight Month

December Was Another Retail Sales Disaster

Retail sales from commerce department, chart by Mish

Month-Over-Month Advances and Declines

  • Food Service: -0.9 percent
  • Food Stores: +0.0 percent
  • Gas Stations: -4.6 Percent
  • General Merchandise: -0.8 Percent
  • Excluding Motor Vehicles and Gas: -0.7 Percent
  • Excluding Motor Vehicles: -1.1 Percent
  • Nonstore (Think Amazon): -1.1 Percent
  • Motor Vehicles: -1.2 Percent
  • Department Stores: -6.6 Percent

For further discussion, please see December Was Another Retail Sales Disaster, Even Worse With Negative Revisions

The BEA agreed with the advance numbers.

Personal Spending Hits a Solid Brick Wall in December Despite Rise in Income

Real Personal Consumption Expenditures from BEA, chart by Mish

On January 27, I noted Personal Spending Hits a Solid Brick Wall in December Despite Rise in Income

Brick Wall

  • Consumers literally hit the brick wall then went into reverse in November and December.
  • Real PCE fell 0.2 Percent in November and 0.3 percent in December.
  • Real PCE Goods were negative 0.9 percent in both months.
  • Real PCE Services rose 0.2 percent in November and was flat in December.

Data Consistent With Recession

When is the last time housing was down for a full year, industrial production down two months, and real spending down two months and the the economy was not in recession?

That said, the NBER is the official arbiter of recessions. 

I do not know what they will say, and it may very well depend on what happens in 2023 Q1.

Point is Moot

Regardless, the point is moot unless there is a credit event or a huge rise in the unemployment rate that forces the Fed to act.

Growth is going to be very weak for a long time. Perhaps based on falling mortgage rates housing stabilizes or even picks up a bit. 

The housing recession can end but weakness can easily persist for years. 

Meanwhile, signs suggest the consumer is weakening. What if instead of a collapse in Q1 it happens in Q2?

Corporate Profits

In many ways a rolling recession is worse than a full-blown recession that forces the Fed to act.

Long periods of stagnant growth with the Fed concerned about an uptick in inflation is not exactly a boon to corporate profits. 

And if people start eating out less, where is the hiring going to come from in the services sector?

Look at the advance retail sales numbers for December again.

  • Food Service: -0.9 percent
  • Food Stores: +0.0 percent
  • Gas Stations: -4.6 Percent
  • General Merchandise: -0.8 Percent
  • Excluding Motor Vehicles and Gas: -0.7 Percent
  • Excluding Motor Vehicles: -1.1 Percent
  • Nonstore (Think Amazon): -1.1 Percent
  • Motor Vehicles: -1.2 Percent
  • Department Stores: -6.6 Percent

Even if you believe the strong January jobs report (I don’t), why should hiring continue with those sales number. Everything but groceries was down. 

For my take on the allegedly strong jobs report, please see Unemployment Rate Hits New Low of 3.4 Percent as Jobs and Employment Jump But…

Looking Ahead

Retail sales may very well determine a recession start date. But the trend is ominous. So is the outlook for corporate profits as long as the Fed is hiking.

If for some reason the Fed cuts, it sure won’t be because the economy is doing any good. 

How Many Rate Hikes Does the Market Now Expect of the Fed?

One month ago, the market thought the terminal rate was 5.00 percent in June followed by two or three 25-basis point cuts all the way to 4.32 percent.

Now it thinks the terminal rate is 5.36 percent in September with rates still at 5 percent in December. 

For discussion, please see How Many Rate Hikes Does the Market Now Expect of the Fed?

What’s Priced In? 

The number of rate hikes is another moot debate. 

The real questions are what happens to corporate earnings and is that priced in?

I don’t know, and no one else does either. But my expectation is that higher for longer is not priced in and that we are not close to a bottom in the stock market.

This post originated at MishTalk.Com

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11 Comments
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worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
“I do not know what they will say, and it may very well depend on what happens in 2023 Q1.”
Take this to the bank; there WILL NOT be a recession, rolling or otherwise, in Q1 of ’23. Granted, you’re probably talking about Q1 being a indicator of what happens this year. I agree, if that’s your point.
“Perhaps based on falling mortgage rates housing stabilizes or even picks up a bit. The housing recession can end but weakness can easily persist for years.”
Housing will stabilize and form a bottom trough between now & April. From there, it picks up slightly as does inflation. This is 1976 – 1982 redux but not on the same magnitude, since the BLS cooked the CPI books back in 1983. Today’s inflation ain’t measured like it was back in the day, and that’s a VERY bad thing.
What happens late this year / early next year and how bad it gets depends on three things:
1) Gobal tension between the US – Russia – China
2) Does JPowell put on his big boy Volcker pants & keep hiking by 25-basis points throughout ’23, pushing the FFR up towards 7% as suggested by Bullard?
3) Once the recession hits and gets rolling, does the UNIPARTY trot out mortgage & rent relief as if it were a global pandemic?
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
Frog cooking Dow. Y/Y disappeared.
xbizo
xbizo
3 years ago
Interest rates are historically normal now. Not sure that we see a large multiple contraction in the stock market from here. Maybe a modest drop for the risk-free rate factor in isolation. That’s typically the ten year note, but some people switch to the twenty-year note when they don’t like the 10-year number. If the inflation fight has credibility, it should not rise a whole bunch.
Falling cash flows would drop the market fast. Question is, with inflation and pricing power driving revenues higher, do we see a drop in profits or a rise in profits? Real GDP could shrink, but company quarterly reports look stellar. If companies hold wage increases to 4.5% and get 7% price increases, it’s going to be a good year.
As someone posted here, they see their clients being able to raise prices to cover inflation and their drop in volume. Will watch to see if that works out or drops demand further until they go BK. That’s a vicious competitive environment. Eventually someone cuts price to soak up the volume.
david halte
david halte
3 years ago
According to the National Association of Realtors. 9 out of 10 metro markets had median single family existing home price gains of 4 percent, YoY in Q4. The typical home price has risen 42 percent, in the past 3 years. Surpassing wage increases and consumer price inflation since 2019. (In December 2018 FOMC, Powell announced the end of his short lived balance sheet reduction phase.) The top 10 metro areas with the largest YoY price increase recorded gains of 14.5 percent. 11 percent of recorded markets had declines in Q4. Housing prices are expected to remain stable due to extremely limited supply, even with a projected reduction in home sales.
As home prices continue to inflate, investors will be reluctant to sell, and supply will remain limited. Single family real estate investment is profitable only with price appreciation. If Powell pivots again, as he did in 2018, the plot to inflation has been laid out. The 10-year Treasury rate is only 0.25 percent above the rate in 2018, before his previous pivot.
Sunriver
Sunriver
3 years ago
Yes. Energy, Agriculture, Health Care, Staples, and a smidge of gold (like 10- 15% of portfolio).
Pepsi of course.
Zombie tech companies are in big trouble. For many years.
Have to invest in companies that actually make money.
I see low if not negative real GDP for many years also.
Six000mileyear
Six000mileyear
3 years ago
I used the metaphor of an accordion: small expansion followed by small contraction until the supply chain and stimulus attenuate.
Zardoz
Zardoz
3 years ago
Gen z appears to have discovered the selling your soul for a house or car isn’t worth it. We’ve been manufacturing tone of crap nobody really needs.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Agree with the slow growth scenario. How long? For the rest of this decade.
And interest rates higher for longer. No idea when they might drop.
Globally; also slow growth, but better than the US.
My investment scenario remains the same. Mostly oil and gas. And nibbling at renewables. Demand for oil and gas will continue to grow while supply will continue to be constrained for the rest of this decade. Oil prices will stay high and the companies will continue to gush free cash flow.
Jack
Jack
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
I am tending to favor nat gas midstream and pipelines. Nice dividend increases and slow steady climb up in share prices. With more LNG exports, NA prices will continue to increase to match world pricing.
My tobacco still doing well as well at 6-9% dividends – I tell myself they are cheap because of poor ESG. I figure people will smoke regardless who owns the company. At least tobacco companies are not lying anymore – everyone knows it is unhealthy.
Matt3
Matt3
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Makes sense to me. I’m just not seeing a big downturn. Thanks for continuing to post investment ideas.
HippyDippy
HippyDippy
3 years ago
Let’s not forget that the political side of the economy is absolutely insane. Between the welfare for defense companies, as is most of our foreign aid, not just to Ukraine. All the mandates for green energy that isn’t creating a genuine threat to our energy system. And all the pork handed out to the welfare organizations (think unions, defense companies, the usual scumbags). The unfunded liabilities. Government is pretty dysfunctional and corrupt, not to mention insane. I wouldn’t take a collapse off the table. It’s all ridiculous. And the slaves will never object.

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