Expect a Long Period of Weak Growth, Whether or Not It’s Labeled Recession

Existing Home Sales courtesy of Trading Economics

Misplaced Recession Debate

Housing leads recessions and recoveries. What’s on the way?

Much of the debate over “recession” is misspaced. I believe a recession started in May and that a third quarter of negative GDP is on the way. 

Some believe a third quarter of declining growth will mean a recession started in the first quarter. 

I peg recession to a decline in retail sales and a big crumbling in housing that both started in May.

It doesn’t matter. What does matter is the shape of the economy going forward. And a fourth quarter of negative growth would not surprise me in the least.

History of Fed-Blown Bubbles

The Fed has blown three consecutive massive bubbles: The DotCom bubble, the housing bubble, and what’s now widely called the everything bubble.

In each case, the Fed blew larger and larger asset bubbles. The wealth effect stimulated spending and borrowing. 

Low interest rates fueled a massive housing bubble again.

In the wake of the DotCom crash the Fed blew the housing bubble. In the wake of the housing crash and Great Recession the Fed started the Everything Bubble.

The Everything Bubble culminated with unprecedented pandemic stimulus, QE, and absurdly low interest rates.

De-Globalization Impact 

De-globalization is underway. A key ramification is higher inflation.

The fed no longer has the wind of globalization at its back pushing down prices. It has inflationary aspects of globalization blowing stiffly in its face. 

That’s another reason to not expect the Fed to soon come to the rescue with QE and lower rates. 

For discussion, please consider De-Globalization: New Supply Chains Are Inefficient and Will Drive Up Inflation

Now what?

Expect a Long Period of Weak Growth

It’s payback time for three consecutive bubbles. Expect a long period of weak growth, no matter how it’s labeled.

This time there will not be bailouts. Nor will the Fed quickly reverse on interest rate policy out of fear of stimulating more inflation and unwanted demand.

Unless asset housing prices crash, the housing sector figures to be weak for a long time, with the Fed unable or unwilling to offer much assistance.

Housing tends to start and end recessions. But where is housing going if prices remain high along with 5+ percent mortgage rates?

An asset crash in general is likely. If so, the wealth effect impact on spending rates to be huge. 

What About Jobs?

  • The Covid-recession was very short, two months, not even a full quarter of declining growth. The pandemic was also accompanied by the greatest job losses in history.
  • I expect the opposite of the Covid-recession: A long period of weak growth accompanied by relatively strong unemployment numbers. 

Countless times over the last six months I heard jobs are are too strong for there to be a recession.

Such talk is nonsense. 

We may easily see three or four quarters of negative GDP with relatively strong jobs because we never fully filled the losses from the pandemic. 

Employment Levels in Retirement Age Groups 

Age 60+ Employment

  • In 2022: 22.09 Million
  • In 2008: 13.46 Million
  • In 1999: 8.22 Million
  • In 1981: 7.21 Million

There are over 22 million people age 60 or over who are still working. We have never seen anything like this before, so don’t expect prior recessions to be a model for this one.

Millions of these people will retire. Employment may drop substantially when these boomers and Gen X employees retire, but falling employment and rising unemployment are not the same thing.

I’m Calling BS on the Second Straight Amazing Jobs Report, Understanding Why

On August 5, I commented I’m Calling BS on the Second Straight Amazing Jobs Report, Understanding Why

Although I expect jobs (more specifically unemployment) to be strong in this recession, the numbers don’t jive.

Synopsis Since March

  • Employment -168,000
  • Jobs +1,680,000

That’s a bit much and I smell revisions or wild data swings one way or another coming up. 

Another possibility is overcounting jobs while undercounting retirements. As of January, there were 22 million people of retirement age still working. 

Fed’s Hands Are Tied

The Jobs data speaks for itself. That is half of the Fed’s mandate. If jobs (unemployment) is relatively strong as I expect, the Fed will have met that half of its mandate.

The Fed’s other mandate is price stability. Everyone on the planet knows the Fed flunked. It gets grade F.

The Fed does not want another grade F. It will err on the side of caution unless there is a credit event or huge rise in unemployment.

De-globalization, asset bubbles, and fear of inflation add up to a fed reluctant to cut. Higher rates and high housing prices will not stimulate that important cyclical aspect of the economy. 

Cyclical Components of GDP, the Most Important Chart in Macro

If you missed it, please note Cyclical Components of GDP, the Most Important Chart in Macro

My follow-up article was A Big Housing Bust is the Key to Understanding This Recession

Housing leads recessions and recoveries and housing rates to be weak for a long time. 

Add it all up and you have the opposite of the Covid-recession, a long period of economic weakness with minimal rise in unemployment.

It does not matter whether you label this a recession or not. Besides, the NBER might not even announce the recession until it’s over. That happened once already.

This post originated at MishTalk.Com

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Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
1 year ago
U.S. crude oil stocks were c. @ 500m in 4/1/21. They are now c. @ 240m. But they are reported to not have changed since c. 9/1/21 (because of Biden’s release of 180 million barrels from the U.S. Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR). What will happen to oil prices after 10/30/22?
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta

There will be continued upward pressure on oil and gas prices for the rest of this decade, because demand for oil and gas will continue to grow, while supply remains constrained due to the reduction in capex spending by oil companies in the previous decade.We are now approaching a supply crunch. OPEC is out of spare capacity and US shale oil and gas is near its peak. Infrastructure spending has declined (think pipelines and refineries).And we have been prematurely tapping into SPR reserves because of political agendas. It is going to be difficult to refill those reserves when prices climb next year, in part because the extra demand will help push prices up, just like the extra supply from those reserves have helped lower prices recently.Add on the European restrictions on Russian oil which start in December and you have a recipe for more upward pressure on oil and gas prices next year.Meanwhile oil and gas companies have been using their huge cash flows to pay down their debt and buy back shares. Some are already debt free.With less debt and fewer shares, in 2023 their cash flows per share are going to be enormous as prices rise. Even if economic growth only averages 1%/a for the remainder of this decade, these companies will continue to thrive.

Robbyrob
Robbyrob
1 year ago
If You Think Your Landlord’s Gouging You Now, Just Wait
8dots
8dots
1 year ago
The drought is so severe twenty German war ships sunk in WWII were discovered on the Danube. The bear market rally might cont to close Apr 21/22 gap, before the pilot descent for landing at the right speed, at the right place.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  8dots
Recycling old German steel is good for climate change.
BDR45
BDR45
1 year ago
Yes! Globalization HAS been killed off due to government’s reactions to Covid-19 plus the sanctions. I don’t think it’s coming back. We are in a new era. I know everyone says inflation will peak and taper off, but it appears that it will increase. Take care.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
1 year ago
Reply to  BDR45
The rate-of-change in long-term monetary flows, the 24mo proxy for inflation, is decelerating. Nevertheless, inflation will remain stubbornly high (much higher than a 2% inflation target). Paul Volcker didn’t tighten monetary policy until 4/1/81 (imposing reserve requirements on NOW accounts). CPI inflation then was 10%. CPI inflation didn’t fall to below 5% until Nov. 1982. Volcker errored again in 1983 (supplying an excessive volume of legal reserves). The 10mo roc in short-term money flows (proxy for real output), the volume and velocity of money, didn’t reverse course until Jun. 1984 (the bottom of the stock market at that time).
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
1 year ago

Milton Friedman’s
influence was pervasive. Friedman at “the Chicago School” in 1932:
Friedman “stopped Viner in his calculus and finally went to the blackboard and
worked the whole problem out, which Viner was unable to do”…
In Mints’ class “Price and Distribution” Friedman “discovered some of the
errors in Keynes’ fundamental equations. Mints wrote Keynes in Friedman’s
behalf – & for the class.
That Keynes admitted the errors, and this gave him, at least in part, the
impetus to write the General Theory.”…”Keynes’ subsequent repudiation in the
General Theory of those parts of the Treatise on Money grew out of these
criticisms.”
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
1 year ago
If you look at Danerics Elliott Wave analysis, you’ll see that we just completed wave 2. So, look forward to limit down days (wave 3).
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
1 year ago
Milton
Friedman proposed (12/16/1959), that reserve requirements should be the same
for both time/savings & transaction-based deposits. Further he advised that
the commercial banks (money creating depository institutions), only become
financial intermediaries (where savings are matched with investments), when
there is a 100% reserve ratio applied against all of their deposit liabilities.
Under monetarism, the first rule of reserves & reserve ratios is that all
money creating, depository financial institutions (DFIs), should have the same
legal reserve requirements, both as to types of assets eligible for reserves,
as well as the level of reserve ratios. Policy should limit all reserves to
balances in the Federal Reserve banks (IBDDs), & have UNIFORM reserve
ratios, for ALL deposits, in ALL banks, irrespective of size.
The economic engine is being run in reverse. As Dr. Philip George says in his “The Riddle of Money Finally Solved”:
“For nearly a century the progress of macroeconomics has been stalled by a single error, an error so silly that generations to come will scarcely believe that it could have persisted for as long as it has done.”
In “The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money”,
John Maynard Keynes’ opus “, pg. 81 (New York: Harcourt, Brace and Co.),
gives the impression that a commercial bank is an intermediary type of
financial institution (non-bank), serving to join the saver with the borrower
when he states that it is an “optical illusion” to assume that “a depositor
& his bank can somehow contrive between them to perform an operation by
which savings can disappear into the banking system so that they are lost to
investment, or, contrariwise, that the banking system can make it possible for
investment to occur, to which no savings corresponds.”
In almost every instance in which Keynes wrote the term bank in the General
Theory, it is necessary to substitute the term non-bank in order to make his
statement correct, viz., the Gurley-Shaw thesis, the DIDMCA of March 31st 1980
which directly caused the S&L crisis, the remuneration of interbank demand
deposits.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
1 year ago
See also: Analysis of bank debits as a business cycle indicator (richmond.edu)
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
1 year ago

In 1931 a commission was established on Member
Bank Reserve Requirements. The commission completed their recommendations after
a 7 year inquiry on Feb. 5, 1938. The study was entitled “Member Bank Reserve
Requirements — Analysis of Committee Proposal”
its 2nd proposal: “Requirements against debits to deposits”

After a 45 year hiatus, this research paper was
“declassified” on March 23, 1983. By the time this paper was “declassified”,
Nobel Laureate Dr. Milton Friedman had declared RRs to be a “tax” [sic].

Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
1 year ago

American, Yale Professor Irving Fisher –
1920 2nd edition: “The Purchasing Power of Money”:

“If the principles here advocated are correct,
the purchasing power of money — or its reciprocal, the level of prices —
depends exclusively on five definite factors”:

(1) the volume of money in circulation;
(2) its velocity of circulation;
(3) the volume of bank deposits subject to check;
(4) its velocity; and
(5) the volume of trade.

“Each of these five magnitudes is extremely
definite, and their relation to the purchasing power of money is definitely
expressed by an “equation of exchange.”

“In my opinion, the branch of economics which
treats of these five regulators of purchasing power ought to be recognized and
ultimately will be recognized as an EXACT SCIENCE, capable of precise
formulation, demonstration, and statistical verification.”

Link: “Extrait du Bulletin de ISI of 1937”. – History and
forms. Irving Fisher (1925) was the first to use and discuss the concept of a
distributed lag.

In a later paper (1937, p. 323), American Yale Professor
Irving Fisher stated that the basic problem in applying the theory of
distributed lags:

“is to find the ’best’ distribution of lag, by which is
meant the distribution such that … the total combined effect [of the lagged values
of the variables taken with a distributed lag has] … the highest possible
correlation with the actual statistical series … with which we wish to compare
it.”

…Thus, we wish to find the distribution of lag that
maximizes the explanation of “effect” by “cause” in a statistical sense”.

To quote economist John Gurley, “Money is a veil, but when
the veil flutters, real-output sputters.”

Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
1 year ago
All monetary savings, income not spent, originates in the banking system. From the standpoint of the banking system, the source of interest-bearing deposits is demand deposits. Consequently, the expansion of interest-bearing deposits per se adds nothing to total bank liabilities, assets, or earning assets. Indeed, it is not a moot question whether the growth of interest-bearing deposits causes a reorientation of monetary policy.
prumbly
prumbly
1 year ago
Nope, we don’t have deglobalization. We have reglobalization. Supply chains are being redrawn depending on which countries we currently hate the most. Today China and Russia are out of favor, but Saudi Arabia and perhaps soon Iran are OK. The EU and the UK just follow whatever we tell them to do, like the scrawny friends of the playground bully. China and Russia are busy building new, stronger trading relationships among the BRIC countries and others. One will have to wait and see who the ultimate winners are, but I think the US is a dead man walking.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
1 year ago
Reply to  prumbly
big time true. mish is great at amerikan r/e bubble bursting analysis, last time we popped. but his world wide analysis is very flawed….with all due respect to him. i do love his blog.
. one must get out and do business in the world to get a handle………i believe. in 2022 the affect of the plague has not been finished. as the spanish flu had a huge affect on housing a century ago(radiators installed all over the world), this plague has kitted out folks work from home anywhere on globe. will the employees get back on the LIRR and trudge back to midtown manhattan???? too early to tell. same goes for every city and town across the land. i’d bet on residential to hold up, but commercial to have a decade or 2 tranformation. way too complicated for economic analysis alone. one needs to put on anthropology and historical hat and still get it wrong.
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  vanderlyn

Two excellent comments from both Prumbly and vanderlyn. You both raise very valid points that will have an impact on future growth and inflation. Perhaps your comments will influence Mish.However, I also believe that Mish has pretty much nailed it overall. Partly because he has finally stopped focusing on whether its a recession or not. I’m not sure how he finally came to the conclusion that we are in for a long period of slow growth (recession or not), but I am going to give credit to many of the commenters here who may have influenced him. For example, I see some influence from mpo45, who has repeatedly mentioned the impact of boomers retiring over the next decade. And the influence of many others who keep mentioning the strong job numbers.Hopefully, we can now agree that the rest of the decade will be likely be dominated by slow growth and high inflation (3-5%).And if so, how should we be investing to take best advantage of this economic reality?What most investors want is solid returns that can beat inflation with as little risk as possible.Looking at Warren Buffett, that has been his focus for 70 years. He has just declared his intention to acquire up to 50% of Occidental. Because he understands that they are going to be a cash flow monster for the rest of this decade. After he gets to 50%, look for him to make an offer for the entire company. He wants “all” of that cash flow.The same is true for almost all oil and gas companies going forward. Slow economic growth will mean continued demand growth for energy. Oil and gas companies are becoming cash flow beasts. Everyone should consider owning some of these companies in their portfolio, based on their individual risk tolerance.I also believe that the next “big thing” is going to be Hydrogen. Thanks to the coming subsidies of up to $3/kg in the US. I have not yet completed my research into this area yet, but I will be glad to share it on this blog when I’m done. Perhaps others here are already ahead of me in this area and can share what they know as well.As always, thanks for the great blog Mish.

Six000mileyear
Six000mileyear
1 year ago
I was on a conference call with someone working from his vacation location. He was surprised restaurants were closed Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday despite the good number of tourists. Apparently the owners can’t find enough wait staff. It’s amazing people don’t want to work. Waiting tables can pay much more than minimum wage when service is good.
Esclaro
Esclaro
1 year ago
Reply to  Six000mileyear
It’s always people don’t want to work. WRONG! People don’t want to work for wages they can’t live on doing jobs no one wants to do. For me to wait tables you would have to pay me $50 an hour. It’s a terrible job. I would rather clean septic tanks fora living!
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Esclaro
My septic tank needs cleaning. What are your hours?
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Esclaro
There is a big difference between what people want and what they can afford. Similarly, there’s a difference between what they can make ‘working’ and what they enjoy doing. Whatever their decisions, they must be responsible for the outcomes. However, the welfare system promotes non-work.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Me: This work absolutely sucks!
Barry: That’s why they call it a job.
8dots
8dots
1 year ago
Losing Nancy & AOC is good news for Biden. After a short plunge, if it come, a goldilocks economy til Nov 2024. But what if the recession last longer…the president will blame his opponents.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  8dots
Biden blames everyone but himself when things are ‘bad’, and takes the credit for anything ‘good’. That will never change.It is what incompetent, arrogant, corrupt a-holes do.
Watch the mass media–already switching back to Democrap. Likely, a deal has been struck about succession. Hence the renewed focus on Trump.
Jmurr
Jmurr
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
That describes every president since Jefferson.
Avery
Avery
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Deal about secession would have been better 2 years ago. With the sanctuary cities and Portland CHAZ and Chop Shop Trump should have declared that all state and local legislators are always free to vote themselves out, a point Lincoln didn’t allow, leading to the deaths of a million. Then what remained could change its name to The Holy Roman Empire. The © expired on that name after Bismarck and after all, it’s not holy, not Roman, and not a empire – so perfect description. Let DC and its surrounding counties hold up a bullseye with ‘Hit it here, Vlad!’.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Avery
Copyright would not be applicable, Trademark perhaps; however, I don’t see the relevance. By ‘succession’, I meant Biden’s replacement. ‘Secession’, your term–well, we’re not there yet, although there is always a possibility politicization gets out of control. However, the gains fall far short of the losses.
How far back do you have to go to find an American president that was a leader for all?
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
I like Ike.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
1 year ago
The scenarios are complicated. There is the phantom tightening that nobody has seen yet.
But let’s say it will happen, there will be some fiscal extravaganza to replace it, since the political process is simply a buying spree for votes.
Now, that should result in insolvency, ritght.
However, there are more bankrupt countries who are morally or sociologically more dysfunctional if that is even possible. Turkey and Argentina comes to mind, but that’t just the tip of the iceberg.
Can the money that flees the places with complete societal breakdown be enogh to buy the US treasuries forever?
ColoradoAccountant
ColoradoAccountant
1 year ago
Speaking of Argentina I’ve been listening to the soundtrack of Evita while taking the kiddo to and from school this week.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
1 year ago
When I think of Argentine music, Astor Piazzolla comes to mind first.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
You made me think of Jorge Borges and how absolutely surreal the economies of the world have been for the past two decades.
Naphtali
Naphtali
1 year ago
I will be 73 next month. I am an engineer and still working. My company gladly keeps me on. They have found that here, on the west coast, young people prefer to find work where they can afford a home, have good schools for their children, and do not worry about social ills like burgeoning crime. North Carolina, Texas and Tennessee look pretty good to young engineers. Intel has decided to locate their next generation facility in Ohio.
The cry for adventure in the new age has become “Go East, Young Man!”.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Naphtali
If I were a high-tech executive, I’d be looking at Boise and Salt Lake City, and Huntsville, Alabama.
radar
radar
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
I work in Huntsville and apartment buildings are going up like we’re part of China. A lot of relocation is coming here. New huge Toyota/Mazda plant just began production this year. I don’t really expect to see a drop in real estate unless government spending gets cut, which that doesn’t seem to be in the cards.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  radar
Back in the day, I knew the Adtran people. Mark Smith was quite a guy. For many years I have told anyone who’d listen that Huntsville was Intel and Houston was Windows when it came to sticking a man on the moon, and that Huntsville was this country’s best kept high-tech secret.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
My adolescence was spent in Titusville, Florida and all the people around us were Huntsville engineers working at Cap Kennedy on the Moon shots. They had that deep Southern draw and they were very smart.
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Rocket scientist humor.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Huntsville high tech is so 70″s.
8dots
8dots
1 year ago
Reply to  Naphtali
Boeing Minuteman III, Raytheon, Airbus…in Huntsville AL
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Naphtali
Also those areas have plentiful water, no wildfires and the absence of those totally ridiculous government regulations like they have on the coasts.
Esclaro
Esclaro
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug78
Wrong! Texas is in the middle of a decade long drought. Water restrictions everywhere. In addition skyrocketing property taxes now make Texas tax burden higher than Massachusetts! Hard to believe I know but I did the numbers. In addition Texas infrastructure is horrible. I-35 is one big long bumper to bumper traffic jam from San Antonio to Dallas. We are getting out after living here 30 years,
Doug78
Doug78
1 year ago
Reply to  Esclaro
Texas is not Tennessee, Ohio or North Carolina which were the states Naphtali mentioned. The Midwest and the South are wet. Texas is in the Southwest and most of it is dry.
Esclaro
Esclaro
1 year ago
Reply to  Naphtali
Crime? Texas has some of the highest crime rates in the country.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Esclaro
Look at the cities more than the states.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
If Joe cancels student debt, what will he say to my niece who entered a university this year, and to millions of others in her situation?
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
What does it say to those who worked two jobs to pay their way through college, or those who have repaid their loans? Or a merit-based scholarship program to actually students to study and work hard at school?
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Yeah, and what does it say to the person just entering, and looking at $20K/year at a public university? It’s moral hazard on steroids.
prumbly
prumbly
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
What it says is, “Vote Democrat. We’ll stuff lots of other people’s money into your sweaty little hands whenever we need your vote.”
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  prumbly
Is that anything like offering $2000 per citizen for two Senate seats in Georgia?
Gerix
Gerix
1 year ago
First house I lived in during the early 1940s was 2br/1ba and 600 sf. Now the average home is four (4) times that size. It’s been great for fueling the economy, but not so great for home prices, affordability, accumulated debt, energy usage and climate change.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Gerix
New American houses average roughly double the size they were in the 1950s.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
1 year ago
That matches the Elliott Wave Theory:
Daneric’s Elliott Waves – Elliott Wave Theory, Technical Analysis, and Social Mood Commentary (danericselliottwaves.org)
With weak housing, the economy should be dragging for a long time.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
1 year ago
Just when I thought 30YFRM were set to push towards 5%, they’ve jumped back up nicely. Today, 5.6% over at MND. Nice!
Would love to see the housing market get into a nice tailspin that pushes us into a recession, the best way to beat inflation.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
The Fed “…. will err on the side of caution unless there is a credit event or huge rise in unemployment….”
My view, for what it is worth, “a credit event” represents by far the biggest risk factor going forward.” Demographic/behavioral shifts are (relatively) predictable–i.e. I concur with MIsh’s employment position given a garden-variety business-cycle downturn.
The real problem, IMHO, is in the financial structure. For example:
1. Over a decade of malinvestment by business, government, and individuals.
2. Risk and return grossly miss-priced by Fed meddling.
3. Pavlovian investors win in an up-market, and run for cover in a down market.
A big enough credit event, the Fed loses control (*already at the margin* given QT goals/non-goals). Then, the herd stampedes and the Fed-dependent ‘credit’ market implodes, wiping out Fed-induced faux debt, and wealth. To quote MIsh, “…existence of large amounts of bad debt and overvalued assets means by
definition that the recorded collective “wealth” of the system exceeds
the real wealth.”
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
To extend your thoughts, Captain, with a label, there are lots of zombie companies out there that won’t be able to stand the increase in borrowing costs. Can’t wait for the downturn. Get the popcorn ready.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Ditto that. It is easy to make money in a rising market. You have to know what to look for in a falling market. Some of my zombies are well-known/famous names.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Everyone forgets why capital markets exist, legitimately: To efficiently allocate capital, and to manage risk.
There is nothing wrong with speculation if markets work as they should.
When the monetary authority overexpands, it can be cured by sterilization, i.e. contraction. But that works only if the initial expansion wasn’t off the charts, and if sterilization is swift.
I can argue that the Fed’s actions in 1987 and even 2008 were necessary, but sterilization lagged after ’08. Then we had ’20-’22, the mother of all excess money at least in the United States.
Taken together with the failure to adequately rein it in after ’08, and the result has been not just misallocation but outright moral hazard that has materially degraded the work ethic upon which all of finance must be based.
Mish cites employment data, as any econometrician will do. I quibble with the numbers, but my misgivings go deeper to the damage that’s been done to the real economy.
My gut feel is that ’08 – ’22 rhymes with 1920 – 1930, and that we’re looking over a cliff labeled 1930-32.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
I firmly believe the Fed / Congress / CFPB will all step in and revisit their Modern Monetary Theory playbook again this time, if things start to get even modestly out of hand. We have past the point of Uncle Sam letting markets alone workout its sterilization. In my overly pessimistic view point, here’s how this plays out:
1. We chug along through the rest of this year and then into early 2023 without significant job loses.
2. Then something more systemic happens, say China’s real estate market collapses.
3. Then, next year sometime we go from a very low unemployment rise to something more dramatic, say above 5%.
4. This is where the Fed / Congress / CFPB step in. The Fed pivots, puts & calls all within three months or so.
5. However, the Fed isn’t able to lower the FFR from 3.75% down to zero due to above 3% inflation.
6. The economy eventually stabilizes in 2024, but the national debt jumps up from $32T to about $36T.
7. Interest expense on our debt jumps from $600B this FY to $800 for FY 2023. Medicare costs balloon & Part B runs a $700B deficit.
8. Trump is re-elected and he unleashes hell on the FBI & Dems. Social unrest grows even greater.
9. In the summer of ’24, a heat wave across the corn belt creates our first brush with the potential for real food shortages. Those brownouts that were hyped this year actually happen in 2024. Hyperinflation stirs.
10. Social unrest is the sterilization.
Certainly, this entire view is conjecture. But the one thing I know to be true is the MMT part. 1-7 is not that far fetched. After that, of course, I’m wandering off into the wilderness a bit.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
I am not sure the Fed actually helped in ’86 and ’08. We will never know if the economy could repair itself (better) if the Fed was not there.
concur 100% with your current ‘climate’. Given Fed dependence, greed and incompetence, I suspect the ‘damage’ is extensive.
Now, we pin our hopes on the Fed, and the rest of the world is in worse shape….
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
“3. Pavlovian investors win in an up-market, and run for cover in a down market.”
Technically, these are known as “sophisticated investors.”
(MPO45 and PapaDave sound as though they are very accomplished. Hat tip to them.)
Christoball
Christoball
1 year ago
Slow growth probably equates with a lower amount of money lent and borrowed into existence. The situation is that previous loans have to be repaid with a slowing money supply growth. The principal and also the non productive interest will have to be paid with an inadequate money supply. The necessary funds to discharge debt will not be sufficiently lent or borrowed into existence to accommodate this.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  Christoball
Beginning with ‘…previous loans have to be repaid with a slowing money supply growth…’ Let’s take the Federal debt… still growing at $30 trillion at near-zero interest rates, and not likely to to stop.
Now, let’s think about three different scenarios, with equal probability. In my view, a slowdown is an optimistic scenario. Realistic??? Pessimistic???
Christoball
Christoball
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Yes a slowdown is an optimistic view. What can be paid will be paid based on practicality and productivity, rather than leverage. Further extreme leverage just won’t be available again until the next bubble cycle. The Everlasting Debt, like Everlasting Love has a passion that can’t be contained, and just goes through cycles.
The federal budget deficit was $423 billion in the first eight months of fiscal year 2022, CBO estimates. That
amount is about one-fifth of the $2.1 trillion shortfall recorded during
the same period in 2021. The CBO projects that the federal budget deficit will shrink to $1.0 trillion in 2022. Federal budget deficits are a contributor to total debt: but unless the funds for borrowing originate directly from the Fed or a bank, they are not Lent or borrowed into existence. All funds lent directly from the Fed or Banks is lent into existence. Since much of the deficit spending is paying off previous debt; Perhaps Fed or Bank originated deficits go bye bye into accounting neverland when discharged.
By contrast a much bigger source of lent money; Fannie Mae predicts $2.72 trillion in mortgage origination in 2021 and $2.47 trillion in 2022. That is a lot of money lent into existence. With slowing Real Estate sales, going forward much less money will be lent into existence, and much less money will be available to pay off existing debts.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  Christoball
If you don’t have the money to pay the debt there’s always bankruptcy.
I expect more than the expected.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
1 year ago
good analysis. i’ve been in the stagflation camp for foreseeable future, but if we really slow down we might just get the stag with inflation being tamed with only another year of fed hikes.
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago

Agree. Recession or not, we are in for a period of slow growth. Which areas are best positioned to do well in this scenario.

Of course, most here know that I am going to say Oil and Gas.
radar
radar
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
I believe Realist predicted the same and penned it as ‘slogflation.’
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  radar
Nice term!
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Utilities, Walmart, Google to name a few.
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Agree with those choices. Though I would consider them more defensive in nature. Oil and gas companies are going to still be gushing cash flow during a mild recession or slowdown. Say 20% at $70 oil. Add 5% for each additional $10.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  worleyeoe
Google (Alphabet) has a long term (60 month) beta about 1.05 and long-term return on equity of 24% or so.
Walmart has a long term beta of 0.45 and long-term return on equity of about 18.5%
Both are highly traded. So unless you know something ‘special’, current prices likely reflect all available information, and most-probable future outcomes.
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
I’m a weak-form efficiency guy, not strong form.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
I’m a fundamentals guy. Every morning, I go looking for the pony in the pasture. He’s usually close to where I left him the previous evening. That said, he was seen eating apples near the orchard fence for the last four days. Does that mean he’ll be there today? Does my answer change if 7 times out of ten he’s near the orchard fence (for two years)?
JackWebb
JackWebb
1 year ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Efficiency, in this context, refers to the degree to which the fundamentals are reflected in the stock price. I think “some, but not entirely.”
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
1 year ago
Reply to  JackWebb
Buy near the bottom of the cycle, and sell near the top worked just fine until the Fed started adding zeroes to its balance sheet (IMHO, fundamentals drive cycles–not fluctuations). After a long (artificial) up cycle, most investors don’t know what risk is–hence my initial comment about beta and return on equity concerning investing in WMT and GOOGL I suspect the longer that rates/yields are suppressed the greater the risk becomes, and the less it is priced. We have been here before in 2006-7, but not in this magnitude (both scale and scope).
PapaDave
PapaDave
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
I see Warren Buffett is now looking to buy up to 50% of Occidental. And I assume that after achieving that, he will then make an offer to buy the entire company.
He can see what a cash flow beast they are going forward and he wants it all.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
1 year ago
Reply to  PapaDave
I do see Warren currently buying a lot of OXY.
I do not see him buying the entire company.
The current situation may be good for a decade, perhaps a bit more.
Warren is not a bag holder.

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