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Where Are Interest Rates Headed? Is the Fed Correct or the Eurodollar Curve?

Data from CME and Fed via Wall Street Journal.

Eurodollar Curve

The eurodollar curve has nothing to do with euros or dollars. Rather it is an interest rate curve and one of the world’s most widely traded futures.

After peaking at about 3.9% this year, eurodollar betters believe the Fed will then cut rates all the way down to 2.8%. 

Five Not-Quite-Impossible Things the Market Believes

Wall Street Journal Contributor James Macintosh discussed the above chart in Five Not-Quite-Impossible Things the Market Believes

  1. Inflation is transitory. 
  2. The Fed realizes this in time.
  3. The jobs market cools enough to slow wage rises. 
  4. But not so much it means falling household spending.
  5. So consumer spending rises in real terms. 

In reference to the led chart, Macintosh says “The first assumption is the hardest to believe.”

I disagree. The hardest thing to believe is the overall goldilocks scenario and that the current rally makes any sense at all. 

Inflation may easily come down if the Fed tightens too much too fast causing a severe recession. What would that do to corporate profits? 

But assume otherwise, that inflation does not come down more. What would that do to corporate profits? 

While any of the first three points may easily be correct, the combination of all five being correct and that stocks will rise in a goldilocks scenario is what I find hard to believe.

Is the Market Forward Looking?

Goldilocks proponents will tell you that the market is forward looking. 

The market isn’t forward looking and never was. It is a coincident indicator of current sentiment, wildly wrong at major turns.

If the market was forward looking, what precisely was it looking forward to at the November 2007 peak with recession starting the next month? 

What was it looking forward to at the 1929 peak, the 1933 bottom, the 2009 bottom or any other top or bottom?

The Fed Will Hike Until It Breaks Something

I believe the eurodollar curve is more likely to be correct than the Fed. When has the Fed gotten much of anything correct?

The eurodollar view has two ways to win. The first is the Fed actually does tame inflation to the degree that it wants.

That’s possible in a severe enough recession. And the global picture is easily weak enough for that to happen.

The second way the eurodollar curve might be correct is if the Fed breaks the credit market. 

The Fed would immediately reverse course, regardless of inflation, should that happen. 

Neither a credit event nor strong recession would be good for the stock market.

The least likely thing is that the Fed achieves a goldilocks soft landing. Yet, assume that happens. 

Macintosh says, and I agree, “The bull case that stocks and corporate bonds are pricing requires the combination of low joblessness and wage rises to allow spending to rise faster than inflation even after pandemic savings run out. But not so much faster that it hits capacity constraints and accelerates inflation.”

The problem with goldilocks is stocks are priced so much beyond perfection that they may decline anyway. 

Globally Speaking 

  1. China Does Surprise Rate Cut to Help Its Economy, But It Won’t Work
  2. German Costs to Ship by Barge are up Twenty Times and May Soon Be Impossible
  3. UK Average Electricity Cost Will Soar to $5,370 Per Year By 2023
  4. US Industries Are Buckling Under Pressure of Surging Electricity Costs

Good luck with goldilocks, especially with the Fed still hiking. 

This post originated on MishTalk.Com.

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44 Comments
Newest
Oldest Most Voted
Christoball
Christoball
3 years ago
No matter what the month to month says; things are still 10% higher cost for individuals, businesses, and consequently government COLA’s than last year. To answer your title question: Where Are Interest Rates Headed?
+ .75- 1.00 % in September
at least.
worleyeoe
worleyeoe
3 years ago
Reply to  Christoball
50 & 25 basis, respectively in Sept & Oct. Then the Fed pause starts in Nov & Dec. The FFR will top out at 3.25% or MAYBE 3.5% as predicted by the Fed earlier this year.
Portlander2
Portlander2
3 years ago
Is the spread a signal about currency valuations reflecting political risk (possibly in addition to inflation risk)? One way to interpret this is that, in the short term, the Euro continues to weaken vis-a-vis the dollar, necessitating a higher interest rate (e.g. political risk+inflation premium due to Ukraine and Sanctions) but by 2024 this will reverse (dollar weakens, back to “normal”)? Otherwise, this would be a great arbitrage opportunity, I would think.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
If there was a lesson from the Reagan years, it was that high inflation will continue until it is properly priced into interest rates. And yes, it was responsible for the recession of 1981-2. No pain, no gain, as they say. What followed was 6 years of growth, albeit mostly in Japan as Americans squandered the gain.
So, while we fret over Fed overnight rates of 3% +/-, the current 52-week T-bill rate is a LAUGHABLE 3.4%. Meaning there is NO compensation for inflation, so a) most REAL credit providers are irrational (or there are no better investments), and/or b) most credit is FAUX.
We prefer to forget that the longer foolishness goes on, the worse it gets. Until we arrive at the Fed’s nightmare scenario. ‘We are damned if we do, and damned if we don’t.’ Having lost real control in fauxdom, this leaves the fabulous Fed with only one course of action: BE SEEN TO BE DOING SOMETHING. Oh, and we can blame it on Putin and China.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Captain Ahab
Eventually the Fed will be briefly right.
I have a beautiful antique non-functional clock on my desk that is EXACTLY right twice a day.
I have it set to 5:30 for cocktails.
Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago

As
I said: The only tool, credit control device, at the disposal of the monetary
authority in a free capitalistic system through which the volume of money can
be properly controlled is legal reserves. The FED will obviously, sometime in
the future, lose control of the money stock.

May
8, 2020. 10:38 AMLink

Daniel L. Thornton, May 12, 2022 agrees with me:

“However, on March 26, 2020, the Board of Governors reduced the reserve
requirement on checkable deposits to zero. This action ended the Fed’s ability
to control M1. In February 2021 the Board redefined M1 so that M1 and M2 are
very nearly identical. Consequently, it makes little sense to distinguish
between them. In any event, the checkable deposit portion of M2 cannot be
controlled now because there are no longer reserve requirements on these
deposits. Here is the reason the Fed cannot control these deposits.”

https://www.dlthornton.com/images/services/Some%20Thoughts%20About%20Inflation%20and%20the%20Feds%20Ability%20%20to%20Control%20It.pdf

Salmo Trutta
Salmo Trutta
3 years ago
re: “The first is the Fed actually does tame inflation to the degree that it wants.” What’s acceptable to the FED, 2%? That’s a long way off.
The FED’s admitted it doesn’t know money from mud pie. Powell has destroyed the system. Interest is not the price of money. The demand for loan funds is not a demand for money, per se, but a demand which reflects the advantages of spending borrowed money. Insofar as there is a relationship it may be said that an increase in the demand for loan-funds tends to be associated with a decrease in the demand for money.
Back in 2007 I used to say that I
needed no “disclaimer”. Economic prognostications were
infallible within a year. The Ph.Ds. in economics never used the FED’s
“elephant tracks” (required reserve balances). As Dr. Richard
G. Anderson said 11/16/06 (the world’s foremost authority on bank reserves): “Since no
one in the Fed tracks reserves”.

Roc’s in
required reserves moved GDP and the markets. The distributed lag effect
of required reserves were mathematical constants. This was corroborated
by the G.6 Debit and Deposit Turnover release (as money is the measure of
liquidity, the yardstick by which the liquidity of all other assets is
measured).

Roc’s in TRs topped when the Dot.com bubble began to burst. Roc’s in RRs bottomed in Oct 2002, topped in Feb 2006, bottomed in March 2009, etc.

Today we have to fall back on DDs (and a disclaimer).
We have to assume that the fixed distributed lag effect applies to DDs
also. We also have to assume that DDs underweight the demand for money,
or its inverse, the transaction’s velocity of funds.

The trend in inflation is down (however unacceptably high), based
on the roc in DDs. But M2/Gross Domestic
Product (potential AD) is still too high:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=eTtE

Stagflation is the most probable outcome.

Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Salmo Trutta
Americans had an opportunity to invest cheap credit money in improved domestic productive capacity and jobs in the early 2000’s. Instead they offshored the production and gamboled (sic) in private home prices. It did not turn out well. Now it is worse. It can get “further worse.” There may be a few reasons to expect it to get better. Maybe not.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
stagflation will be with us for years to come.
vanderlyn
vanderlyn
3 years ago
fed has only one mandate. to keep the banks solvent and in high cotton. all the other talk about the fed is just eyewash for juvenile thinking. i’d expect after the bailouts in 2007 through 2009 we’d all get this. remember goldman got a banking charter overnight…………..but keep stroking one’s own ego and thinking the FED is dumb or smart or right or wrong. it’s meaningless because YOU HAVE BEEN HAD, if you believe any of that rubbish. i do find it funny. i am back in nyc and walk by NYFED each week and always chuckle. that is where the real business is done. not in DC and powell. that’s all theatre in the round to fool the lumpenproles and middlebrows……….
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  vanderlyn
Look at the size of the reserves at the NYFR. Look at the size of the reserves at the other 11. ‘Nuf said.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
I rarely believe the FED. They always claim to be tough, but then never follow through with actions. Wonder when QT will actually start.
But, they’ve never faced inflation before. At least not in 40 years. So, they may be more leery of cutting this round.
MPO45
MPO45
3 years ago
Wow comment fed to moderator…I’ll take Fed over EuroDollar. Walmart doing fine based on what I read on 10Q transcripts.
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
They hit lowered guidance. Same thing with every recession. Lower expectations and then exceed the lowered expectations. People are too dumb to see what’s going on.
MPO45
MPO45
3 years ago
Fed forecast vs Eurodollar, The Ultimate Clash of the Titans! I think a better question is how did we get to this paradox? I’ve been looking at it and can’t come up with anything so it must be something that we’re all missing and some undercurrent of bad currency or debt swaps. Maybe we’ll find out if it blows up.
I read thru the Walmart 10Q conference call to see what the management of the company was thinking. Consumers continue to spend although they have switched from brands to generics. Wealthier people are now shopping at Walmart and spending on electronics. Walmart over ordered 30% inventory ON PURPOSE to fend off future short term supply chain issues. Inflation and labor wages are still a major issue. Overall, I was impressed with the management discussion even though I don’t own Walmart stock nor shop there, I give kudos to the management team on their strategy. If it pulls back again, I may pick up some shares.
I’ll take the Fed over Eurodollars.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
If you seriously believe this: “Walmart over ordered 30% inventory ON PURPOSE” GOOD LUCK.
FooFooFed
FooFooFed
3 years ago
when has the fed ever been right? Fed says we are data dependent!….hahahahaha, if they were data dependent then they would have been raising rates long ago.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  FooFooFed
Unless the Fed is incompetent or corrupt, they should be right 50% OF THE TIME 🙂
MPO45
MPO45
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
I think people have long misunderstood what “forward looking markets” are exactly. For me, it means that given the current circumstances, a business that continues to operate under those conditions with growth will achieve a certain rate of return and hence a certain stock price.”
It’s no different than taking a bond that pays 10% on $1000 and expecting future payments of $100 every year until the term of the bond. This statement holds true until a default occurs and the bond no longer pays the coupon. No one says, the bond was forward looking but look what happened after the default.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
I tend to think that the market should reflect the present value of future earnings. So it must be looking forward at those future earnings expectations. What makes the market volatile is differences of opinion on what those future earnings will be. Everyone looks forward differently.
For example, I added to my core position in Meg Energy today as the stock dipped to attractive levels. Looking forward, I expect oil to “average” $100/bbl for the foreseeable future. At $100 oil, Meg gushes free cash flow of 35% at todays share price, so it could buy back all its shares with just 3 years of FCF. They have 35 years of stay-flat reserves. They are promising that FCF to shareholders as dividends and/or buybacks once they hit their target debt level in Q3 2023. Which means shareholders will get their investment back eleven times over the next 35 years. At $70 oil, cash flow is 20% and shareholders get their money back 7 times.
MPO45
MPO45
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
I know you are in love with energy but I would strongly suggest you take a look at this chart and study it. Look through the 2008 lens as we head into a recession. 2023 may be as bad as 2008 and energy won’t be performing as you think it might. As always, invest based on your needs and goals but exercise caution.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45

No need to worry. Energy is just over 60% of my stock portfolio. And my stock portfolio is roughly 25% of my wealth. So energy stocks are presently just 15% of my wealth.

And during “most” recessions energy demand continues to grow. Just more slowly. Only during severe recessions will demand for energy drop.
Mish expects a mild recession with very little job loss. I agree.
And energy firms now have the discipline of stay flat production, pristine balance sheets and prodigious cash flow. Their break evens are below $40/bbl.
I am happy to stay in for the rest of this decade.
However, I appreciate your concern. Thanks.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  MPO45
I now think the next big thing will be Hydrogen. Biden’s new Inflation Reduction Act will provide big subsidies for green hydrogen of $3/kg. This is going to make the US the world leader in this nascent industry. I am currently investigating this area and identifying the companies that stand to benefit. And I will be happy to share that info here.
TexasTim65
TexasTim65
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
I agree with your call on Hydrogen. It’s definitely going to be one of the major fuels going forward.
radar
radar
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
Thank you Dave, would love to know your thoughts!
RonJ
RonJ
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
“Which means shareholders will get their investment back eleven times
over the next 35 years. At $70 oil, cash flow is 20% and shareholders
get their money back 7 times.”
At my age, that is well past my use by date to wait that long. Not that i use them, but the Reddit crowd gets there faster. Cramer was bashing Bed Bath & Beyond for sales being down 27%, yet the stock went from 5 to 30 in just over 2 weeks. 6X.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
I will leave BB&B to you. Good luck with it. How many shares do you own?
At $100 oil, Meg will return 100% of your investment every 3 years. You are not required to hold it for 35 years. You can sell anytime you want.
However, I’m guessing you prefer gold and cash instead of stocks, based on your frequent comments.
You are welcome to that investment as well.
Though I doubt it will provide 100% return in 3 years.
PapaDave
PapaDave
3 years ago
Reply to  RonJ
How are you liking BBB now? Down 20% today and down another 35% after hours.
Me. I prefer companies with pristine balance sheets that are gushing so much free cash flow that they can buy back all their shares and privatize in a few years. Or they can pay me 30% dividends every year. Either way, I win.
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  PapaDave
The market is indeed forward looking.
However, that doesn’t matter because the market is blind and waving a white stick with a red tip.
8dots
8dots
3 years ago
Backwardation. If a new exogenous causes happen in Sept/ Oct, a new black swan, the European inflation will popup.
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
3 years ago
Interestingly, none of the forecasts predict when or if the overnight rate will ever get above the inflation as measured by the officialdom, but then, we live in a neverending wildfire fighting mode, like California in the summer.
JeffD
JeffD
3 years ago
Inflation is occuring because people have decoupled the concept of price from the concept of value. I have been watching people pay any price without question, no matter how nonsensical the price. This won’t change until access to credit dries up. So it’s not rates that are going to determine a recession at this point, but access to credit.
Six000mileyear
Six000mileyear
3 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
I know I’m overspending on projects at work. Some things are still experiencing supply chain issues, but I buy more of what has no supply chain issues just in case.
Jack
Jack
3 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
Everyone was affected by the last 2 years. The world was turned upside down. The world essentially stopped for a short period. People died. People dreamed.
This brought out YOLO concept out. Why be frugal if you only live once?
Lisa_Hooker
Lisa_Hooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Jack
Because you might, just might, live longer than you think you will.
I’ve been poor and I’ve been rich.
Rich is better.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  JeffD
It depends on what you mean by value. Price is observable. Value is based on individual perceptions, beliefs, and needs, and is largely unknown and unobservable. What we do know is that ‘rational’ people will not pay more for a thing than their ‘value’ of it. By the way, the more valuable something is perceived, the greater the incentive to buy, and the more that will be paid for it.
As for access to credit… IMHO, credit availability and interest rates are fundamentally connected, when credit comes from foregone consumption (real saving)–an opportunity cost. When credit is created by adding zeros to a balance sheet, such credit has no value. There is no opportunity cost. That is where we are now.
Tony Bennett
Tony Bennett
3 years ago
No one likes to mention QT.
Last week balance sheet increased (again). June 1st was kick off date for QT. $30 billion treasuries + $17.5 billion in mbs per month (for first 3 months … then each amount doubles). I understand settlements and such take time, but to date balance sheet shrinkage a mere $36 billion.
Any wonder equities loving life??
Maximus_Minimus
Maximus_Minimus
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
The markets figured out QT was Jerome’s April Fool’s joke.
WTFUSA
WTFUSA
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
The Fed is going to kill the monster by throwing cotton balls at it.
Christoball
Christoball
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
“Any wonder equities loving life??”
I am sure the indexes are doing better than many of the individual companies
MPO45
MPO45
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
So are you suggesting that equities will only crash if QT moves forward? And if QT gets cancelled does that mean stocks to the moon? Investing minds would like to know….
KidHorn
KidHorn
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
I think the FED believes no QE is the same as QT.
Captain Ahab
Captain Ahab
3 years ago
Reply to  Tony Bennett
In past comments, I’ve said, ‘The Fed is in control until it isn’t.’ I think we are rapidly nearing the inflection point, if we are not already there.
Insert image here: the Fed is meeting–all members are sucking their thumbs.
Until there is a substantive failure…

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